Which eCCR is most field servicable?

**Gill Envy** · 6th July 2006, 16:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by nitrojunkie)

Replace defective solenoid - Dive

Go home

Re-insert defective solenoid - Ship to AP by ground shipping

Your out the cost of your "spare" solenoid but you'll have one in the gear bag for next time.

from what i could tell the solenoid is soldered and peeling back the plastic sleeves on the wiring to clip and resolder would have been quite obvious...puting the old solenoid back in place would not have been a simple task and would have been quite obvious.

if someone knows of a way to remove the solenoid cleenley then do tell, i have a feeling this won't be the only time i will be in this kind of situation and of course the clock is ticking on the warrenty anyway, so it's just a matter of time before i'm going to be compelled to have every spare part that i could concievably swap out myself.

webhead · 6th July 2006, 17:25

If one did want to swap out a solenoid themselves or have a spare, does anyone know where to buy the exact replacement - either manufacturer or another company? Could be handy information down the road.

SimonK · 6th July 2006, 20:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead)

If one did want to swap out a solenoid themselves or have a spare, does anyone know where to buy the exact replacement - either manufacturer or another company? Could be handy information down the road.

Approximatly £44 from APD

**Gill Envy** · 7th July 2006, 07:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead)

Very interesting question. I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries.

O-rings and batteries? What about the oxygen sensors, i was even told to purchase an extra one becuase they are so finicky...an example of a component that is so likely to have problems over time that the user is expected to be able to replace it...so why stop with the oxygen sensors, why not make all major components that easy to remove and replace. It would seem that for a couple of hundred bucks one should be able to get their hands on a spare parts kit that covers all major failures minus mother board/internal computer circuit failures... this is a no brainer to me, I can't believe it's not already the case for every major brand of rebreather. It would seem to be in manufactureres best interest to ensure that entire trips are not ruined, even if it meens losing repair revenue...

Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead)

So to prevent a ruined trip, the current solution is to bring spares. But when a spare CCR head costs a few thousand dollars, that's not going to work for everyone.... or is that anyone. Time to teach that significant other to dive a CCR and buy a 2nd unit. Whichever, what a design concept for the makers - modular head so you can swap out controllers, solenoid, etc. Are the Fischer connectors up to the task? Or is the answer to add a 3rd controller - one fails, you have 2 controllers to start the dive. This is based on recommendations not to dive a CCR if there is a computer failure.

A few thousand dollars? I'd do it, but a vision head is more like $5 grand, and then there would be the issue of having it sit on the shelf...how long would it be good for before needing to be bench tested and serviced. In this case it was my significant others unit that crapped out, and i did get to use mine... luckily we did have an extra OC set up for her, but wow, transitioning back to OC was brutal to watch and trying to work out a dive profile with an OC diver was not easy on me either.

decoweenie · 7th July 2006, 07:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

...luckily we did have an extra OC set up for her, but wow, transitioning back to OC was brutal to watch and trying to work out a dive profile with an OC diver was not easy on me either...

Who said chivalry is dead...

PeteS · 7th July 2006, 20:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

from what i could tell the solenoid is soldered and peeling back the plastic sleeves on the wiring to clip and resolder would have been quite obvious...puting the old solenoid back in place would not have been a simple task and would have been quite obvious.

if someone knows of a way to remove the solenoid cleenley then do tell, i have a feeling this won't be the only time i will be in this kind of situation and of course the clock is ticking on the warrenty anyway, so it's just a matter of time before i'm going to be compelled to have every spare part that i could concievably swap out myself.

You don't need to remove the wiring from the coil, just the coil from the valve. Then you can change or clean the valve body without disturbing the wiring.

But if you need to be told that, then perhaps you should be sending it back to the factory.......

**Gill Envy** · 10th July 2006, 16:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS)

You don't need to remove the wiring from the coil, just the coil from the valve. Then you can change or clean the valve body without disturbing the wiring.

But if you need to be told that, then perhaps you should be sending it back to the factory.......

i don't think it was a matter of changing and cleaning the valve boby, the coil had no contenuity. it's my understanding that the coil had a fault, perhaps a fault all along, as B1 never showed any decay...the batteries, with nearly 30 hours on them always showed a full charge. I'm thinking that the coil was defective all along and barely drawing any current, just enough to actuate the valve and then it just finally gave out completely.

Looking forward to hearing what the problem actually was, should be hearing soon. Strangely, i'll feel better if it was not the actual solenoid.

So, still, if anyone knows if there is a way to change out the solenoid coil without cutting and soldering and is willing to share diagrams or pictures, i'd appreciate knowing if there is anything i can do in the future if this ever happens again.

PaulTG2 · 13th July 2006, 16:57

Hello,

I guess with the assumed liability the manufactureres just do not want people to change even the simplest items.

Case in point: 2-3 months for simple parts replacement:

I wanted a few minor parts for a rebreather -- a c-clip, spring, etc. The rep said I needed to ship the unit to them for review. The result:

1) I was told not to ship it for two weeks because they would be out of town.

2) A week in transit to get it to them.

3) After reviewing it they need to order the parts from the manufacturer... justed closed for the entire MONTH for Holiday (vacation).

4) I imagine it will be two weeks after they reopen to fill the order, ship, and have the part installed and another week to ship it back.

Total down time: probably on the order of 2-3 months for parts I could easily have replaced.

Not exactly a customer friendly industry.

--p

**Gill Envy** · 13th July 2006, 18:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by PaulTG2)

Hello,

I guess with the assumed liability the manufactureres just do not want people to change even the simplest items.

Case in point: 2-3 months for simple parts replacement:

I wanted a few minor parts for a rebreather -- a c-clip, spring, etc. The rep said I needed to ship the unit to them for review. The result:

1) I was told not to ship it for two weeks because they would be out of town.

2) A week in transit to get it to them.

3) After reviewing it they need to order the parts from the manufacturer... justed closed for the entire MONTH for Holiday (vacation).

4) I imagine it will be two weeks after they reopen to fill the order, ship, and have the part installed and another week to ship it back.

Total down time: probably on the order of 2-3 months for parts I could easily have replaced.

Not exactly a customer friendly industry.

--p

Paul, I'm a little confused since your profile shows that you don't own a rebreather and your post doesn't mention a specific model, perhaps your profile just needs updating/clarifying.

I see examples of critical life support that the user is already expected to swap out, examples of ways to make a moisture resistant plug reliable enough for things as crytical as the O2 scensors and temp stick to be replaced/connected by the user. This contradicts the argument manufacturers/reps bring up for hard wiring. Add to that the six pages of disclaimers and liability releases one signs to even purchase one, I just don't buy that there is a good enough reason to not allow the user to replace even more components. I'm not talking about servicing components, i'm talking about being able to just unplug/unscrew them and replace them. I think that there should be a way to do it for the solenoid in particular.

My bottom line is that since it's apparently impossible for manufacturers to make their product %100 reliable, that they are therefore obligated to make them more field servicable and create policies that reflect the fact that these machines are specifically purchased to be used in extreme, remote locations where so much is riding on the ability to address problems on location. The depth of dissappointment, frustration and mistrust that is generated by lost dives/trips is slowing the growth of the market (IMHO). Reducing the risk of having entire trips blown by a component failure by making them more field servicable is a major way manufacturers of eCCR's can make their products more appealing to an expanding advanced recreational market.

another solution could be, at least for the warrenty period, that manufacturers have extra sets of electronics/heads stragically located around at hubs around the globe for loan/rent, while the consumer's head is being shipped back. these heads would then be sent back to the manufacturer for bench testing before returning to their hub. Something like this could also be a solution to the inherent problem of reliability/servicability.

6th July 2006, 16:16	#21 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,313	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by nitrojunkie) Replace defective solenoid - Dive Go home Re-insert defective solenoid - Ship to AP by ground shipping Your out the cost of your "spare" solenoid but you'll have one in the gear bag for next time. from what i could tell the solenoid is soldered and peeling back the plastic sleeves on the wiring to clip and resolder would have been quite obvious...puting the old solenoid back in place would not have been a simple task and would have been quite obvious. if someone knows of a way to remove the solenoid cleenley then do tell, i have a feeling this won't be the only time i will be in this kind of situation and of course the clock is ticking on the warrenty anyway, so it's just a matter of time before i'm going to be compelled to have every spare part that i could concievably swap out myself. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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6th July 2006, 17:25	#22 (permalink)
webhead Earning the green stuff.. Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: East central Florida Posts: 284	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? If one did want to swap out a solenoid themselves or have a spare, does anyone know where to buy the exact replacement - either manufacturer or another company? Could be handy information down the road. __________________ "These are not the droids you are looking for.... move along" - Obi-Wan Kenobi
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6th July 2006, 20:30	#23 (permalink)
SimonK Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Cumbria UK Posts: 231	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead) If one did want to swap out a solenoid themselves or have a spare, does anyone know where to buy the exact replacement - either manufacturer or another company? Could be handy information down the road. Approximatly £44 from APD
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7th July 2006, 07:32	#24 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,313	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead) Very interesting question. I'm not aware of any rebreather manufacturer that will let you swap out a solenoid in the field and not void the warranty. The only thing I know that a user can change in the field is the O-rings and batteries. O-rings and batteries? What about the oxygen sensors, i was even told to purchase an extra one becuase they are so finicky...an example of a component that is so likely to have problems over time that the user is expected to be able to replace it...so why stop with the oxygen sensors, why not make all major components that easy to remove and replace. It would seem that for a couple of hundred bucks one should be able to get their hands on a spare parts kit that covers all major failures minus mother board/internal computer circuit failures... this is a no brainer to me, I can't believe it's not already the case for every major brand of rebreather. It would seem to be in manufactureres best interest to ensure that entire trips are not ruined, even if it meens losing repair revenue... Quote: (Originally Posted by webhead) So to prevent a ruined trip, the current solution is to bring spares. But when a spare CCR head costs a few thousand dollars, that's not going to work for everyone.... or is that anyone. Time to teach that significant other to dive a CCR and buy a 2nd unit. Whichever, what a design concept for the makers - modular head so you can swap out controllers, solenoid, etc. Are the Fischer connectors up to the task? Or is the answer to add a 3rd controller - one fails, you have 2 controllers to start the dive. This is based on recommendations not to dive a CCR if there is a computer failure. A few thousand dollars? I'd do it, but a vision head is more like $5 grand, and then there would be the issue of having it sit on the shelf...how long would it be good for before needing to be bench tested and serviced. In this case it was my significant others unit that crapped out, and i did get to use mine... luckily we did have an extra OC set up for her, but wow, transitioning back to OC was brutal to watch and trying to work out a dive profile with an OC diver was not easy on me either. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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7th July 2006, 07:37	#25 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) ...luckily we did have an extra OC set up for her, but wow, transitioning back to OC was brutal to watch and trying to work out a dive profile with an OC diver was not easy on me either... Who said chivalry is dead... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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7th July 2006, 20:10	#26 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 533	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) from what i could tell the solenoid is soldered and peeling back the plastic sleeves on the wiring to clip and resolder would have been quite obvious...puting the old solenoid back in place would not have been a simple task and would have been quite obvious. if someone knows of a way to remove the solenoid cleenley then do tell, i have a feeling this won't be the only time i will be in this kind of situation and of course the clock is ticking on the warrenty anyway, so it's just a matter of time before i'm going to be compelled to have every spare part that i could concievably swap out myself. You don't need to remove the wiring from the coil, just the coil from the valve. Then you can change or clean the valve body without disturbing the wiring. But if you need to be told that, then perhaps you should be sending it back to the factory....... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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10th July 2006, 16:02	#27 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,313	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by PeteS) You don't need to remove the wiring from the coil, just the coil from the valve. Then you can change or clean the valve body without disturbing the wiring. But if you need to be told that, then perhaps you should be sending it back to the factory....... i don't think it was a matter of changing and cleaning the valve boby, the coil had no contenuity. it's my understanding that the coil had a fault, perhaps a fault all along, as B1 never showed any decay...the batteries, with nearly 30 hours on them always showed a full charge. I'm thinking that the coil was defective all along and barely drawing any current, just enough to actuate the valve and then it just finally gave out completely. Looking forward to hearing what the problem actually was, should be hearing soon. Strangely, i'll feel better if it was not the actual solenoid. So, still, if anyone knows if there is a way to change out the solenoid coil without cutting and soldering and is willing to share diagrams or pictures, i'd appreciate knowing if there is anything i can do in the future if this ever happens again. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 10th July 2006 at 16:05.
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13th July 2006, 16:57	#28 (permalink)
PaulTG2 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Virginia, USA Posts: 425	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Hello, I guess with the assumed liability the manufactureres just do not want people to change even the simplest items. Case in point: 2-3 months for simple parts replacement: I wanted a few minor parts for a rebreather -- a c-clip, spring, etc. The rep said I needed to ship the unit to them for review. The result: 1) I was told not to ship it for two weeks because they would be out of town. 2) A week in transit to get it to them. 3) After reviewing it they need to order the parts from the manufacturer... justed closed for the entire MONTH for Holiday (vacation). 4) I imagine it will be two weeks after they reopen to fill the order, ship, and have the part installed and another week to ship it back. Total down time: probably on the order of 2-3 months for parts I could easily have replaced. Not exactly a customer friendly industry. --p
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13th July 2006, 18:11	#29 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,313	Re: Which eCCR is most field servicable? Quote: (Originally Posted by PaulTG2) Hello, I guess with the assumed liability the manufactureres just do not want people to change even the simplest items. Case in point: 2-3 months for simple parts replacement: I wanted a few minor parts for a rebreather -- a c-clip, spring, etc. The rep said I needed to ship the unit to them for review. The result: 1) I was told not to ship it for two weeks because they would be out of town. 2) A week in transit to get it to them. 3) After reviewing it they need to order the parts from the manufacturer... justed closed for the entire MONTH for Holiday (vacation). 4) I imagine it will be two weeks after they reopen to fill the order, ship, and have the part installed and another week to ship it back. Total down time: probably on the order of 2-3 months for parts I could easily have replaced. Not exactly a customer friendly industry. --p Paul, I'm a little confused since your profile shows that you don't own a rebreather and your post doesn't mention a specific model, perhaps your profile just needs updating/clarifying. I see examples of critical life support that the user is already expected to swap out, examples of ways to make a moisture resistant plug reliable enough for things as crytical as the O2 scensors and temp stick to be replaced/connected by the user. This contradicts the argument manufacturers/reps bring up for hard wiring. Add to that the six pages of disclaimers and liability releases one signs to even purchase one, I just don't buy that there is a good enough reason to not allow the user to replace even more components. I'm not talking about servicing components, i'm talking about being able to just unplug/unscrew them and replace them. I think that there should be a way to do it for the solenoid in particular. My bottom line is that since it's apparently impossible for manufacturers to make their product %100 reliable, that they are therefore obligated to make them more field servicable and create policies that reflect the fact that these machines are specifically purchased to be used in extreme, remote locations where so much is riding on the ability to address problems on location. The depth of dissappointment, frustration and mistrust that is generated by lost dives/trips is slowing the growth of the market (IMHO). Reducing the risk of having entire trips blown by a component failure by making them more field servicable is a major way manufacturers of eCCR's can make their products more appealing to an expanding advanced recreational market. another solution could be, at least for the warrenty period, that manufacturers have extra sets of electronics/heads stragically located around at hubs around the globe for loan/rent, while the consumer's head is being shipped back. these heads would then be sent back to the manufacturer for bench testing before returning to their hub. Something like this could also be a solution to the inherent problem of reliability/servicability. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 13th July 2006 at 18:14.
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