Level of detail in CCR logging (if any)

roakey · 19th June 2006, 22:18

I’m wondering what data (if any) is logged for various rebreathers. I remember that mystery of Kendall’s death (http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1999/kendall.html) was solved by the Cis-Lunar’s detailed log.

Most dive computers will log depth and time; I assume that most integrated computers in CCRs log depth, time and PPO2. But how many log ALL events, like solenoids being actuated? Alarms being sounded? Various setup states (and when they’re changed) like alarms being enabled or disabled? PPO2 set point being changed? mV output of every sensor on each poll?

What appears to me to be conspicuously absent from all the accident reports is detailed information leading up to the accident – there’s information about how the unit was functioning, etc. AFTER the accident, but not what was going on before the accident.

My assumption is that there is little or no logging of functional (versus environmental – depth/time/PPO2) information available from most, if not all of the rebreathers available on the market today.

If I’m incorrect in the above assumption, why is there virtually no mention of the log in the accident write-ups? That, after all, would give you a huge insight into the events leading up to the accident.

roakey

lizardland · 19th June 2006, 22:23

It's probably stating the obvious but the KISS doesn't have any such finction. I use a Sensus Pro to log depth v. time but it would be nice to see how my ppO2 varied over the dive.

On the other hand, I'd rather have something that lowered my chance of dying rather than telling other people how I died. It's a function I'm living without. I'm also a luddite, if I can manage without it then I will.

roakey · 19th June 2006, 22:44

I realize the KISS would not have the ability to log such information due to its design. It’s not a matter of storing information about how you died -- all automated CCRs are ALREADY gathering all the information I mentioned – they’re looking at the sensor voltages, they know the depth, they’re deciding weather to fire a solenoid or not and sound an alarm or not each and every poll time period.

Does anyone store all that information in a detailed form?

I develop high-end disk controller software. We consider the customer’s on-disk data important enough to log events on, since, in reality:

1) We’re not perfect and all software has bugs in it.
2) Sometimes the parameters exceed that which we designed for.
3) Sometimes the customer makes a mistake.

Logging helps us find our bugs, discover unanticipated out-of-range events and identify if the customer made a mistake. We consider the customer’s on-disk data important enough for extremely detailed logging, I would consider a customer’s life even more important, wouldn’t you think?

It would at least be far more effective than a shrug of the shoulders and a “well, it looks good to me” once the equipment is brought back to the surface.

Roak

bgpartri · 19th June 2006, 23:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by roakey)

I realize the KISS would not have the ability to log such information due to its design.
Roak

The Shearwater provides log information for the KISS. It will also be available for the Megalodon in a few weeks.

roakey · 19th June 2006, 23:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by bgpartri)

The Shearwater provides log information for the KISS. It will also be available for the Megalodon in a few weeks.

I'm looking for specifics; "log information" covers quite a bit of ground.

Roak

bgpartri · 20th June 2006, 00:30

The Shearwater logs the following information for each dive:

Dive number
Date and time
Max Depth
Start and End CNS
Start and End battery voltage

And this information every 10 seconds during a dive:

Depth
Ceiling
First stop time
TTS
Average PPO2
FO2
FHE
NDL
OC/CC
Water Temp

It also logs some system diagnostic information. This last section doesn't normally get displayed. It's intended for me to use to trace problems.

***caveseeker7*** · 20th June 2006, 00:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by roakey)

I’m wondering what data (if any) is logged for various rebreathers. I remember that mystery of Kendall’s death was solved by the Cis-Lunar’s detailed log.

If I remeber correctly Kendall's unit was switched to offboard O2 (a mechanical switch on the gas block) but he had no offboard tanks attached. While the Cis' log would confirm that, you wouldn't really need a data recorder to figure that out. Why there was such a confusion at the time I don't know, might well have had to do with PR and political reasons.

Quote:

Most dive computers will log depth and time; I assume that most integrated computers in CCRs log depth, time and PPO2.

Yes, I've seen some from VR3 computers, they do record the pO2.

Quote:

But how many log ALL events, like solenoids being actuated? Alarms being sounded? Various setup states (and when they’re changed) like alarms being enabled or disabled? PPO2 set point being changed? mV output of every sensor on each poll?

The only three units I can think of that were/are offered to the public that have (accessable) data recording are the before mentioned Cis-Lunar, the Ouroboros and Vision-equiped AP units. The latter two are in production and their manuals are available for download ( C.C.R and A.P. )

Quote:

What appears to me to be conspicuously absent from all the accident reports is detailed information leading up to the accident – there’s information about how the unit was functioning, etc. AFTER the accident, but not what was going on before the accident.

What seems to be conspiciously absent to me is ANY detailed information from most accidents. Even if there were blackboxes recording data up the whazoo it doesn't mean that we as the general public would ever get glimpse at the data. The situation involving various agencies in various jurisdictions investigating, the privacy of victims and families, lawyers and insurance companies would still be the same. Maybe, just maybe, manufacturers may get to see the data and know if the machine failed the diver or the diver the machine. Which we won't find out about unless it all ends up in court somewhere.

Quote:

My assumption is that there is little or no logging of functional (versus environmental – depth/time/PPO2) information available from most, if not all of the rebreathers available on the market today.

Well, about 70 odd Cis, 50 or 60 Ouroboros and however many Visions AP has cranked out, probably several 100 by now.

Maybe UT240s or CCR2000 had that capability, but they're probably in the low dozends together.

Jetsams and all SCRs lack warnings or electronics all together.

The eCCRs (Inspo, PRISM, Meg, HH) may record some data, but it would be factory access only, they're not user downloadable.

***jradomski*** · 20th June 2006, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Well, about 70 odd Cis, 50 or 60 Ouroboros and however many Visions AP has cranked out, probably several 100 by now.

Maybe UT240s or CCR2000 had that capability, but they're probably in the low dozends together.

Jetsams and all SCRs lack warnings or electronics all together.

The eCCRs (Inspo, PRISM, Meg, HH) may record some data, but it would be factory access only, they're not user downloadable.

There is another unit that did really extensive loggin unfortunately there are a limited amount produced a very few hit the civilian market.. I have a listing of whats logged.. I'll look for it a copy here, but from memory everything you would ever want to know was logged every second...

***Beanie*** · 20th June 2006, 08:02

external cell enabled VR3 when plumbed into the loop will record PPO2 time depth etc

not sure on the time resolution though

NickK · 20th June 2006, 08:49

APD Vision records 22 parameters (21 is real time, 1 - CO2% - probably for future use) for every 10 sec of the dive, viewable through APD Log Viewer supplied with Evo and Inspo Vision.
Very informative for post dive analysis, however after defacto.

Cheers,
Nick

19th June 2006, 22:18	#1 (permalink)
roakey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA Posts: 4	Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) I’m wondering what data (if any) is logged for various rebreathers. I remember that mystery of Kendall’s death (http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1999/kendall.html) was solved by the Cis-Lunar’s detailed log. Most dive computers will log depth and time; I assume that most integrated computers in CCRs log depth, time and PPO2. But how many log ALL events, like solenoids being actuated? Alarms being sounded? Various setup states (and when they’re changed) like alarms being enabled or disabled? PPO2 set point being changed? mV output of every sensor on each poll? What appears to me to be conspicuously absent from all the accident reports is detailed information leading up to the accident – there’s information about how the unit was functioning, etc. AFTER the accident, but not what was going on before the accident. My assumption is that there is little or no logging of functional (versus environmental – depth/time/PPO2) information available from most, if not all of the rebreathers available on the market today. If I’m incorrect in the above assumption, why is there virtually no mention of the log in the accident write-ups? That, after all, would give you a huge insight into the events leading up to the accident. roakey
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19th June 2006, 22:23	#2 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,177	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) It's probably stating the obvious but the KISS doesn't have any such finction. I use a Sensus Pro to log depth v. time but it would be nice to see how my ppO2 varied over the dive. On the other hand, I'd rather have something that lowered my chance of dying rather than telling other people how I died. It's a function I'm living without. I'm also a luddite, if I can manage without it then I will. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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19th June 2006, 22:44	#3 (permalink)
roakey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA Posts: 4	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) I realize the KISS would not have the ability to log such information due to its design. It’s not a matter of storing information about how you died -- all automated CCRs are ALREADY gathering all the information I mentioned – they’re looking at the sensor voltages, they know the depth, they’re deciding weather to fire a solenoid or not and sound an alarm or not each and every poll time period. Does anyone store all that information in a detailed form? I develop high-end disk controller software. We consider the customer’s on-disk data important enough to log events on, since, in reality: 1) We’re not perfect and all software has bugs in it. 2) Sometimes the parameters exceed that which we designed for. 3) Sometimes the customer makes a mistake. Logging helps us find our bugs, discover unanticipated out-of-range events and identify if the customer made a mistake. We consider the customer’s on-disk data important enough for extremely detailed logging, I would consider a customer’s life even more important, wouldn’t you think? It would at least be far more effective than a shrug of the shoulders and a “well, it looks good to me” once the equipment is brought back to the surface. Roak __________________ roakeyatunderctekdotcom
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19th June 2006, 23:25	#4 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 375	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) Quote: (Originally Posted by roakey) I realize the KISS would not have the ability to log such information due to its design. Roak The Shearwater provides log information for the KISS. It will also be available for the Megalodon in a few weeks. __________________ http://www.rebreather.ca Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
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19th June 2006, 23:44	#5 (permalink)
roakey New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Colorado Springs, Colorado, USA Posts: 4	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) Quote: (Originally Posted by bgpartri) The Shearwater provides log information for the KISS. It will also be available for the Megalodon in a few weeks. I'm looking for specifics; "log information" covers quite a bit of ground. Roak __________________ roakeyatunderctekdotcom
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20th June 2006, 00:30	#6 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 375	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) The Shearwater logs the following information for each dive: Dive number Date and time Max Depth Start and End CNS Start and End battery voltage And this information every 10 seconds during a dive: Depth Ceiling First stop time TTS Average PPO2 FO2 FHE NDL OC/CC Water Temp It also logs some system diagnostic information. This last section doesn't normally get displayed. It's intended for me to use to trace problems. __________________ http://www.rebreather.ca Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from bad judgement.
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20th June 2006, 00:57	#7 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,318	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) Quote: (Originally Posted by roakey) I’m wondering what data (if any) is logged for various rebreathers. I remember that mystery of Kendall’s death was solved by the Cis-Lunar’s detailed log. If I remeber correctly Kendall's unit was switched to offboard O2 (a mechanical switch on the gas block) but he had no offboard tanks attached. While the Cis' log would confirm that, you wouldn't really need a data recorder to figure that out. Why there was such a confusion at the time I don't know, might well have had to do with PR and political reasons. Quote: Most dive computers will log depth and time; I assume that most integrated computers in CCRs log depth, time and PPO2. Yes, I've seen some from VR3 computers, they do record the pO2. Quote: But how many log ALL events, like solenoids being actuated? Alarms being sounded? Various setup states (and when they’re changed) like alarms being enabled or disabled? PPO2 set point being changed? mV output of every sensor on each poll? The only three units I can think of that were/are offered to the public that have (accessable) data recording are the before mentioned Cis-Lunar, the Ouroboros and Vision-equiped AP units. The latter two are in production and their manuals are available for download ( C.C.R and A.P. ) Quote: What appears to me to be conspicuously absent from all the accident reports is detailed information leading up to the accident – there’s information about how the unit was functioning, etc. AFTER the accident, but not what was going on before the accident. What seems to be conspiciously absent to me is ANY detailed information from most accidents. Even if there were blackboxes recording data up the whazoo it doesn't mean that we as the general public would ever get glimpse at the data. The situation involving various agencies in various jurisdictions investigating, the privacy of victims and families, lawyers and insurance companies would still be the same. Maybe, just maybe, manufacturers may get to see the data and know if the machine failed the diver or the diver the machine. Which we won't find out about unless it all ends up in court somewhere. Quote: My assumption is that there is little or no logging of functional (versus environmental – depth/time/PPO2) information available from most, if not all of the rebreathers available on the market today. Well, about 70 odd Cis, 50 or 60 Ouroboros and however many Visions AP has cranked out, probably several 100 by now. Maybe UT240s or CCR2000 had that capability, but they're probably in the low dozends together. Jetsams and all SCRs lack warnings or electronics all together. The eCCRs (Inspo, PRISM, Meg, HH) may record some data, but it would be factory access only, they're not user downloadable. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
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20th June 2006, 07:56	#8 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Well, about 70 odd Cis, 50 or 60 Ouroboros and however many Visions AP has cranked out, probably several 100 by now. Maybe UT240s or CCR2000 had that capability, but they're probably in the low dozends together. Jetsams and all SCRs lack warnings or electronics all together. The eCCRs (Inspo, PRISM, Meg, HH) may record some data, but it would be factory access only, they're not user downloadable. There is another unit that did really extensive loggin unfortunately there are a limited amount produced a very few hit the civilian market.. I have a listing of whats logged.. I'll look for it a copy here, but from memory everything you would ever want to know was logged every second... __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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20th June 2006, 08:02	#9 (permalink)
*Beanie* Politeness officer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,157	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) external cell enabled VR3 when plumbed into the loop will record PPO2 time depth etc not sure on the time resolution though __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk www.divelife.co.uk
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20th June 2006, 08:49	#10 (permalink)
NickK New Member Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 83	Re: Level of detail in CCR logging (if any) APD Vision records 22 parameters (21 is real time, 1 - CO2% - probably for future use) for every 10 sec of the dive, viewable through APD Log Viewer supplied with Evo and Inspo Vision. Very informative for post dive analysis, however after defacto. Cheers, Nick
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