Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits?

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 6th June 2006, 19:20

One thing I sure don't miss is carrying my double 120s on my back. That alone has made the switch worth it for me. I hated switching tanks between dives. So, this was my main set up for all diving. I did not own singles.

I also like being able to do longer dives without gas concerns and limitations. This even applies to recreational limits for depth.

There is no question about it: it is more work both before and after the dive. However, it is worth it to me.

I think about the only time that I would start to consider OC would be for short shallow dives followed by many days of surface interval. Then, it would mean lots of pre and post dive work for just a little bit of diving here and there, and using an Extend Air cartridge every time of diving (if long enough between days of diving).

I have sold my open circuit gear. I prefer to dive the same set up for all dives. So, there is no turning back for me, and I am not missing open circuit at all.

zbskii · 6th June 2006, 19:23

I just got certified on the Sport Kiss - I'm planning on getting some easy rec dives in before I go any further. Honestly, I don't think the Sport is that much harder to setup than a single tank. The pre dive checks only take a few minutes and because the tanks last so long, there's nothing to do between dives besides your pre-dive checks.

The main reason I did all this was so I could take 2 19s for a weekend of diving instead of 4 steel 72s. The closest dive site to me is a few hours away, so this is really nice. Of course now I also have to take a toolkit, my bucket of sorb, etc etc etc

**Gill Envy** · 6th June 2006, 20:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by kpalas)

Just looking for some opinions here...what do you think.

Do you think investing in a rebreather and the training required would be a waste if you only were going to be diving above 130 ft., and not doing deep/deco/trimix type diving?

My wife and I have only been rebreather diving for about 9 weeks with about 25 hours on our units. None of these dives have been below 125fsw and were all within NDL’s. We don’t plan on ever doing really deep dives. Weather or not it’s worth it depends on the day you ask us. There are times when I think not, but more and more I do. I think it depends on what style of diving you do and what you are dissatisfied with from your oc experience. It could be argued that the greatest benefits of rebreather diving are experienced within recreational limits…but I’m sure it won’t take too much longer before we are dawn by the call of the deep.

My reasoning for rebreather diving other than going deeper:

-Less gear lugging for shore dives: My back has been showing signs of wear with all the 80cf tanks i've lugged on trips over the years...and much lighter than doubles. No longer have to take 1 tank per dive...more like 2- 13 cf tanks per 3-5 dives. 13cf tanks can be easily hicked long distances.

-Greater return investment for our effort and expense per dive trip: we started adding up what we were spending on vacations each year to tropical places and how much effort we were putting into getting to far flung camping/dive/kayak destinations in places like Canada each year for the 30 to 45 minute fleeting experience of being under water on each dive. The overall ratio of bottom time to expense or effort expended was staggering. With rebreathers we are doubling what we are getting back from our investment so far. Looking at it this way, a rebreather will likely pay for itself in a few years.

-For us, diving in the north west requires dry suits and is cold…we are much warmer diving our rebreathers and thus can stay down longer. We get less fatigued from the cold.

-We end a dive whenever we want, averaging 75 minute dives. We come up not because we are running out of air or running up against decompression limits, but rather because we are satisfied. The whole diving experience is more relaxed and fulfilling, we no longer rush through our dives to make sure we don’t miss anything and thus see more of everything.

-dehydration: we get less dehydrated, by far, diving on rebreathers, so we don’t need to drink as much water pre dive and don’t need to pee for up to 1 ½ hrs bottom time…so no need for a pee valve.

-We use kayaks to get to our dive destinations, involving considerable exertion pre and post dive and fairly heavy current during the dive… we feel that there is a reduced risk of DCS from constant PO2 diving.

-Less nitrogen fatigue…we are much more energized on our trips even after multiple days of diving. Maybe the increased oxygen gives us a boost too…it’s hard to explain, it just feels good to dive instead of draining.

-Extended no decompression limits and faster off gassing…we can stay down below 100 ft much longer and we off gass quickly on decent since we are breathing such highly enriched air. This allows us to run up near the NDL at 100-130 fsw but stay for extended periods in the 60-80 ft range.
You get all the benefits of nitrox diving, but precisely tuned to optimize the mix at each depth.

-our evo’s are easy to set up and don’t add much prep time compared to our OC days…very intuitive to use, so i wouldn't say it's a lot more fussing with gear than OC.

-while diving within recreational limits, we get 3-4 dives out of one set of bottles and a scrubber…much less lugging of bottles and virtually no set up time inbetween multiple dives, you just run it through the predive sequence, put it on your back and go!

-Extended expeditions are now possible with minimal hauling of bottles…this past weekend we went up to Canada and camped and dove for the whole weekend with what we could fit on/in our kayaks. We can now go off into relatively uncharted territory for prolonged periods of time without having to worry about air fills.

-Close encounters: we have been seeing a lot more on our dives than we used to… in just 15 dives we’ve seen diving birds face to face, a school of mating squid, large schools of fish on every dive in places we would hardly ever see them. We took cameras with us for the first time this last weekend and got some great shots of swimming nedubrancs!

-communication with buddy: we can virtually talk to each other under water, having extended conversations…the mouth piece allows for much more articulation under water than our oc kazoo.

-We can end our dive at any time without feeling like we are wasting gas…there just less pressure overall in the diving experience. whatever we don’t use in gas and scrubber on a given dive we can use on the next one. While there is debate over the advisability of saving unused scrubber, we have decided we feel safe reusing scrubber if the dive is within recreational limits, each consecutive dive is shallower than the last, and when the scrubber hits % 25 on the temp stick at the deepest part of the dive we chuck it no matter how much it recovers on the ascent. We’v been get up to five hours on our canister this way…it’s almost economical.

-by adding a rebreather to our kayak diving we have much more FREEDOM! We get to say when, where and how we dive…at least when it’s local.

onetime · 6th June 2006, 20:42

My over-riding reason for going Rebreather is logistics. I like to explore shallow lakes here in NJ and carrying a bunch of bottles for a weekend of diving was a PITA. Took too much space on the boat and required too many refills. With a Classic KISS I can grab a can of sorb, maybe 4 13cf bottles and it hardly takes up the area in front of my helm.

Rebreather's are quite flexible. They are not just for deep dives. Of course you've got to weigh the cost versus benefits. In my case I felt the benefit justified the cost because I put a lot of value on convenience.

***schford*** · 6th June 2006, 20:43

Great Post Gill have a blob. Only thing I am not sure I would agree with is the Prep time

Throwing a 12L into a BC/Wing and jumping in is a wee bit quicker IMHO.

Stuart

**nigelh** · 6th June 2006, 20:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

I wouldnt go back to OC I love the flexibility.....

In one.

I don't have to wonder what dive I'm doing next time I just fill it and when the phone rings I can just say yes and go dive.

Also I don't do enough diving to keep OC and CC skills fine tuned so I dived 18/40 to 14 meters for 25 minutes on Sunday.
I enjoyed it which is what counts.

**Gill Envy** · 6th June 2006, 21:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by schford)

Great Post Gill have a blob. Only thing I am not sure I would agree with is the Prep time

Throwing a 12L into a BC/Wing and jumping in is a wee bit quicker IMHO.

Stuart

thanks Stuart

oh yeah, for one dive for sure, oc is easier...but when i get 3-5 dives in a remote location as described, on one set of tanks and a scrubber fill...i'd have to time it to be sure, but i think it might actually be less prep time overall. but we are still in the honey moon phase

.

Sutty · 6th June 2006, 21:48

I mainly dive with OC buddies at the moment, with the occasional shallowish solo dive. I still think a Rebreather is worth it, OK so there is a bit more pre and post-dive fiddling, I reckon this is more than made up for in less frequent trips to the LDS for gas (though a booster helps here).
Also it is in the recreational depths (where I mainly am currently) that there is the biggest deco advantage - most of my buddies are on air and I need Far less deco (though I usually keep them company - I'm safer and I'm still warm when they are frozen

).

Neil

MHD · 6th June 2006, 21:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Sport Kiss owners will tell you 'NO!

" while Dolphin,
Azimuth and Submatix divers will likely tell you "Yes!

"

As a spors kiss diving, azimuth SCR converted to CCR diver I pretty much cover this, SCR is not easier, in fact it's harder. (Ok JasonM I got this wrong a few years ago).

Honestly if you are looking for recreational depths gets a sports kiss. It does make a big difference to what you can do, completely changes the BT of a 30 m dive. means on good days you can indulge yourself wothout lots of deco. I have no problem gearing my unit up for those sort of dives. But a mate on a classic kiss has given up CCR for shallow dives, but he is always having problems with his unit, hence does not enjoy it. It is more work the night before/ morning of setting up. Once on the boat, it should be simple positive and negative and a pre-breath, and you are away.

having said that there are time that OC is just so simple , carefree and fun, but usually I start wishing I could stay longer when that happens and thinking about the Rebreather. But if I am just jumping over board to check an anchor or having a quick look at a potential mark in less than 40m, OC is preferred.

Matt

viscya · 6th June 2006, 22:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh)

In one.

I don't have to wonder what dive I'm doing next time I just fill it and when the phone rings I can just say yes and go dive.
...

That's my main reason. I go on 50 ft dives and 250 ft dives. Getting gas fills takes time. How many sets of doubles do you need to keep to be able to jump on any dive you fancy in a moments notice.

I start Mod 1 this week, so my deep dives will be OC for a while. At the end of the month I have a deep trip which will require Trimix in all my doubles and stages. What do I do if the trip is blown out? Do I dive 15/55 to 50 ft on OC? $$$$ Do I buy more doubles for shallow dives? Where does it end?

With CCR, I should need a couple 3L O2 bottles, a couple Dil bottles, bailout, and I'm done. Any dive any time.

6th June 2006, 19:20	#11 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? One thing I sure don't miss is carrying my double 120s on my back. That alone has made the switch worth it for me. I hated switching tanks between dives. So, this was my main set up for all diving. I did not own singles. I also like being able to do longer dives without gas concerns and limitations. This even applies to recreational limits for depth. There is no question about it: it is more work both before and after the dive. However, it is worth it to me. I think about the only time that I would start to consider OC would be for short shallow dives followed by many days of surface interval. Then, it would mean lots of pre and post dive work for just a little bit of diving here and there, and using an Extend Air cartridge every time of diving (if long enough between days of diving). I have sold my open circuit gear. I prefer to dive the same set up for all dives. So, there is no turning back for me, and I am not missing open circuit at all. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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6th June 2006, 19:23	#12 (permalink)
zbskii I have a diving problem. Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 138	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? I just got certified on the Sport Kiss - I'm planning on getting some easy rec dives in before I go any further. Honestly, I don't think the Sport is that much harder to setup than a single tank. The pre dive checks only take a few minutes and because the tanks last so long, there's nothing to do between dives besides your pre-dive checks. The main reason I did all this was so I could take 2 19s for a weekend of diving instead of 4 steel 72s. The closest dive site to me is a few hours away, so this is really nice. Of course now I also have to take a toolkit, my bucket of sorb, etc etc etc
(Offline)

6th June 2006, 20:36	#13 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Quote: (Originally Posted by kpalas) Just looking for some opinions here...what do you think. Do you think investing in a rebreather and the training required would be a waste if you only were going to be diving above 130 ft., and not doing deep/deco/trimix type diving? My wife and I have only been rebreather diving for about 9 weeks with about 25 hours on our units. None of these dives have been below 125fsw and were all within NDL’s. We don’t plan on ever doing really deep dives. Weather or not it’s worth it depends on the day you ask us. There are times when I think not, but more and more I do. I think it depends on what style of diving you do and what you are dissatisfied with from your oc experience. It could be argued that the greatest benefits of rebreather diving are experienced within recreational limits…but I’m sure it won’t take too much longer before we are dawn by the call of the deep. My reasoning for rebreather diving other than going deeper: -Less gear lugging for shore dives: My back has been showing signs of wear with all the 80cf tanks i've lugged on trips over the years...and much lighter than doubles. No longer have to take 1 tank per dive...more like 2- 13 cf tanks per 3-5 dives. 13cf tanks can be easily hicked long distances. -Greater return investment for our effort and expense per dive trip: we started adding up what we were spending on vacations each year to tropical places and how much effort we were putting into getting to far flung camping/dive/kayak destinations in places like Canada each year for the 30 to 45 minute fleeting experience of being under water on each dive. The overall ratio of bottom time to expense or effort expended was staggering. With rebreathers we are doubling what we are getting back from our investment so far. Looking at it this way, a rebreather will likely pay for itself in a few years. -For us, diving in the north west requires dry suits and is cold…we are much warmer diving our rebreathers and thus can stay down longer. We get less fatigued from the cold. -We end a dive whenever we want, averaging 75 minute dives. We come up not because we are running out of air or running up against decompression limits, but rather because we are satisfied. The whole diving experience is more relaxed and fulfilling, we no longer rush through our dives to make sure we don’t miss anything and thus see more of everything. -dehydration: we get less dehydrated, by far, diving on rebreathers, so we don’t need to drink as much water pre dive and don’t need to pee for up to 1 ½ hrs bottom time…so no need for a pee valve. -We use kayaks to get to our dive destinations, involving considerable exertion pre and post dive and fairly heavy current during the dive… we feel that there is a reduced risk of DCS from constant PO2 diving. -Less nitrogen fatigue…we are much more energized on our trips even after multiple days of diving. Maybe the increased oxygen gives us a boost too…it’s hard to explain, it just feels good to dive instead of draining. -Extended no decompression limits and faster off gassing…we can stay down below 100 ft much longer and we off gass quickly on decent since we are breathing such highly enriched air. This allows us to run up near the NDL at 100-130 fsw but stay for extended periods in the 60-80 ft range. You get all the benefits of nitrox diving, but precisely tuned to optimize the mix at each depth. -our evo’s are easy to set up and don’t add much prep time compared to our OC days…very intuitive to use, so i wouldn't say it's a lot more fussing with gear than OC. -while diving within recreational limits, we get 3-4 dives out of one set of bottles and a scrubber…much less lugging of bottles and virtually no set up time inbetween multiple dives, you just run it through the predive sequence, put it on your back and go! -Extended expeditions are now possible with minimal hauling of bottles…this past weekend we went up to Canada and camped and dove for the whole weekend with what we could fit on/in our kayaks. We can now go off into relatively uncharted territory for prolonged periods of time without having to worry about air fills. -Close encounters: we have been seeing a lot more on our dives than we used to… in just 15 dives we’ve seen diving birds face to face, a school of mating squid, large schools of fish on every dive in places we would hardly ever see them. We took cameras with us for the first time this last weekend and got some great shots of swimming nedubrancs! -communication with buddy: we can virtually talk to each other under water, having extended conversations…the mouth piece allows for much more articulation under water than our oc kazoo. -We can end our dive at any time without feeling like we are wasting gas…there just less pressure overall in the diving experience. whatever we don’t use in gas and scrubber on a given dive we can use on the next one. While there is debate over the advisability of saving unused scrubber, we have decided we feel safe reusing scrubber if the dive is within recreational limits, each consecutive dive is shallower than the last, and when the scrubber hits % 25 on the temp stick at the deepest part of the dive we chuck it no matter how much it recovers on the ascent. We’v been get up to five hours on our canister this way…it’s almost economical. -by adding a rebreather to our kayak diving we have much more FREEDOM! We get to say when, where and how we dive…at least when it’s local. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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6th June 2006, 20:42	#14 (permalink)
onetime Classic KISSer #138 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US, NJ Posts: 673	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? My over-riding reason for going Rebreather is logistics. I like to explore shallow lakes here in NJ and carrying a bunch of bottles for a weekend of diving was a PITA. Took too much space on the boat and required too many refills. With a Classic KISS I can grab a can of sorb, maybe 4 13cf bottles and it hardly takes up the area in front of my helm. Rebreather's are quite flexible. They are not just for deep dives. Of course you've got to weigh the cost versus benefits. In my case I felt the benefit justified the cost because I put a lot of value on convenience.
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6th June 2006, 20:43	#15 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,562	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Great Post Gill have a blob. Only thing I am not sure I would agree with is the Prep time Throwing a 12L into a BC/Wing and jumping in is a wee bit quicker IMHO. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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6th June 2006, 20:45	#16 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 842	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) I wouldnt go back to OC I love the flexibility..... In one. I don't have to wonder what dive I'm doing next time I just fill it and when the phone rings I can just say yes and go dive. Also I don't do enough diving to keep OC and CC skills fine tuned so I dived 18/40 to 14 meters for 25 minutes on Sunday. I enjoyed it which is what counts. __________________ nigelh
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6th June 2006, 21:01	#17 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Quote: (Originally Posted by schford) Great Post Gill have a blob. Only thing I am not sure I would agree with is the Prep time Throwing a 12L into a BC/Wing and jumping in is a wee bit quicker IMHO. Stuart thanks Stuart oh yeah, for one dive for sure, oc is easier...but when i get 3-5 dives in a remote location as described, on one set of tanks and a scrubber fill...i'd have to time it to be sure, but i think it might actually be less prep time overall. but we are still in the honey moon phase. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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6th June 2006, 21:48	#18 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 801	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? I mainly dive with OC buddies at the moment, with the occasional shallowish solo dive. I still think a Rebreather is worth it, OK so there is a bit more pre and post-dive fiddling, I reckon this is more than made up for in less frequent trips to the LDS for gas (though a booster helps here). Also it is in the recreational depths (where I mainly am currently) that there is the biggest deco advantage - most of my buddies are on air and I need Far less deco (though I usually keep them company - I'm safer and I'm still warm when they are frozen ). Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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6th June 2006, 21:59	#19 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Sport Kiss owners will tell you 'NO! " while Dolphin, Azimuth and Submatix divers will likely tell you "Yes! " As a spors kiss diving, azimuth SCR converted to CCR diver I pretty much cover this, SCR is not easier, in fact it's harder. (Ok JasonM I got this wrong a few years ago). Honestly if you are looking for recreational depths gets a sports kiss. It does make a big difference to what you can do, completely changes the BT of a 30 m dive. means on good days you can indulge yourself wothout lots of deco. I have no problem gearing my unit up for those sort of dives. But a mate on a classic kiss has given up CCR for shallow dives, but he is always having problems with his unit, hence does not enjoy it. It is more work the night before/ morning of setting up. Once on the boat, it should be simple positive and negative and a pre-breath, and you are away. having said that there are time that OC is just so simple , carefree and fun, but usually I start wishing I could stay longer when that happens and thinking about the Rebreather. But if I am just jumping over board to check an anchor or having a quick look at a potential mark in less than 40m, OC is preferred. Matt
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6th June 2006, 22:00	#20 (permalink)
viscya Wrecking Crew Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Marlton New Jersey Posts: 138	Re: Are Rebreather's a waste for sport depth limits? Quote: (Originally Posted by nigelh) In one. I don't have to wonder what dive I'm doing next time I just fill it and when the phone rings I can just say yes and go dive. ... That's my main reason. I go on 50 ft dives and 250 ft dives. Getting gas fills takes time. How many sets of doubles do you need to keep to be able to jump on any dive you fancy in a moments notice. I start Mod 1 this week, so my deep dives will be OC for a while. At the end of the month I have a deep trip which will require Trimix in all my doubles and stages. What do I do if the trip is blown out? Do I dive 15/55 to 50 ft on OC? $$$$ Do I buy more doubles for shallow dives? Where does it end? With CCR, I should need a couple 3L O2 bottles, a couple Dil bottles, bailout, and I'm done. Any dive any time. __________________ "There is nothing majestic or dignified about being left to silently rot and collapse under heaps of old fishing net forgotten and unappreciated in dark and unvisited waters." DrMike Last edited by viscya : 6th June 2006 at 22:04.
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