First Two dives on the Hammer Head

MHD · 7th June 2006, 20:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

In the same sense as buying a car, fill it up with petrol then push it to save gas ?

more to do with the difference of being a passanger to your Rebreather PO2 control system rather than in control of your PO2.

Matthew

decoweenie · 7th June 2006, 23:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

more to do with the difference of being a passanger to your Rebreather PO2 control system rather than in control of your PO2.

Believe what you want to believe but just remember that someone who probably have more hours on the KISS (manual addition) than you have on CCR disagree with you about "being a passEnger".

Tell me you have never driven a car in cruisse control or taken a ride on an elevator...

Never mind...

Mark Chase · 7th June 2006, 23:21

I am constantly amazed at what computers can do these days and i am sorry but I paid a shed load of money for my CCR and my set point controller and I damed well expect it to hold set point. I don't care what I am doing, going up, going down what ever I EXPECT it to work. I don't dive to dive the CCR I dive to dive the wreck.

When I dived OC I would check my gages after about 30 -40mins just to make sure they were OK and I had enough gas. I would check my deco computer after about 30mins and when it told me i had my pre planned tolerance of deco I would ascend. If things went wrong i had plans that would allow me to survive and ascent from max depth.

When I switched to CCR I expected /demanded AT LEAST this level of dive comfort. I have a HUD and apart for pre dive, in water, and bottom of shot I don't check my hand sets unless i have noting better to do. I DAMED WELL EXPECT my £800.00 HUD to flash red at the first sign of any problem. I also expect my training to prepare me for the occasions when it does flash red.
Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set.

ATB

Mark Chase

decoweenie · 7th June 2006, 23:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set.

Mark,

Personally, I don't think we are there yet independent of what others might think.

You do need to know your PO2 at all times, and you do not need to be staring at your display. It only takes a second for me to scan the PO2 display and I don't think that qualifies as "staring".

BTW, 40 mins between checking your SPG is too long IMHO.

Drmike · 8th June 2006, 02:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I am constantly amazed at what computers can do these days and i am sorry but I paid a shed load of money for my CCR and my set point controller and I damed well expect it to hold set point. I don't care what I am doing, going up, going down what ever I EXPECT it to work. I don't dive to dive the CCR I dive to dive the wreck.

When I dived OC I would check my gages after about 30 -40mins just to make sure they were OK and I had enough gas. I would check my deco computer after about 30mins and when it told me i had my pre planned tolerance of deco I would ascend. If things went wrong i had plans that would allow me to survive and ascent from max depth.

When I switched to CCR I expected /demanded AT LEAST this level of dive comfort. I have a HUD and apart for pre dive, in water, and bottom of shot I don't check my hand sets unless i have noting better to do. I DAMED WELL EXPECT my £800.00 HUD to flash red at the first sign of any problem. I also expect my training to prepare me for the occasions when it does flash red.
Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set.

ATB

Mark Chase

Expecting or demanding it to always work wont change the reality that it wont.

There is nothing more deadly than an eccr that is almost always 100% reliable.

Divers will get complacent will trust the controller/hud and when/if it screws up that one time they will be dead.

IMO its crazy to 100% trust a controller any controller.

I find checking my handsets to be quick easy and in all honesty gives me a nice warm fuzzy fealing that all is right in the world. At moments during any dive I check how Im feeling, check the deco requirement, check the time, check the environment, check the depth - why not check the most critical -that the life support system is working?. I find all checks to be important and very reasuring.

Of course you dont have to be checking every 5 mins. At depth the ppo2 drop is often so slow you dont have to check for ages, on ascents you have to check more often. When you know when to check and how often to check you find yourself checking less.

If you really want a controller you can trust 100% and fly confidently just off the HUD - why on earth did you fix up a non working 2nd hand HH on your unit??? Doesnt make sense to me.

Mark I appreciate your desire to be able to trust the controller/hud - but you have to live in the real world (if you want to remain living in it) - there is no such thing as 100% reliable.

I personally think the 1 second spent cross checking my handset with the HUD is 1 second well spent.

MHD · 8th June 2006, 04:57

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Believe what you want to believe but just remember that someone who probably have more hours on the KISS (manual addition) than you have on CCR disagree with you about "being a passEnger".

Tell me you have never driven a car in cruisse control or taken a ride on an elevator...

Never mind...

Phi, while you are emphasizing spelling, you really should pay attention to punctuation, the “?” does not indicated a definitive point of view, but in this case a tentative answer to someone elses question.

As for “I’ve done more than you” comments, I think your flirtation with DIR and the Fridge is coming out, you sound like George

Matthew

decoweenie · 8th June 2006, 06:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD)

...you sound like George...

No need to get nasty here...

Mark Chase · 8th June 2006, 07:31

I fully support the idea of always knowing your PP02. I put a HUD on my Classic immediately because it was imposable to always know my PP02 without one.

Ignoring the HH hud at the moment which has problems and IS forcing me to look at my hand sets all the time, my old HUD worked brilliantly.

Uri's HUD had independent red & green LEDs for each cell and showed set point of 1.3 with a big obvious three greens throughout the dive. With this HUD I could see errors in individual cells immediately as they occurred and cell movement of +/- 0.1. Flashing green or green red on any cell would lead to a check of hand sets and plumbed in VR3 for verification.

It worked. I always knew my PP02 was within tolerance

Why I should trust the hand sets any more than I trusted the HUD I have no idea. Why people consider it safer to check their hand sets once every 5 mins (and in my experience they don't do it that often) rather than have the information constantly available, I also have no idea.

The thread is drifting off into safety issues of monitoring PP02. My I EXPECT post was aimed as the set point controller. I expect it to hold set point. If it doesn't then my HUD will tell me. I see absolutely no point in tasking my self to have to manually run the unit unless its broken.

However in this instance it appears to be the HUD thats broken so I am running the head on the hand sets.

ATB

Mark Chase

Mark Chase · 8th June 2006, 07:37

[quote=Drmike]

Quote:

If you really want a controller you can trust 100% and fly confidently just off the HUD - why on earth did you fix up a non working 2nd hand HH on your unit??? Doesn't make sense to me.

Do you know something about the unit I bought that i don't? I was told it had just been serviced and it was in full working condition. Obviously my problems since with the HUD raise suspicion but I couldn't know that without diving it.

Quote:

Mark I appreciate your desire to be able to trust the controller/hud - but you have to live in the real world (if you want to remain living in it) - there is no such thing as 100% reliable.

I personally think the 1 second spent cross checking my handset with the HUD is 1 second well spent.

An yet people dived the classic for years with only one source of info. Two hand sets cross calibrated?? I added a VR3 and a HUD straight away to spread the responsibility.

All new CCRs have a HUD and there is a damed good reason for this. I look forward to the HUD that displays actual PP02 numbers. It exists already.

ATB

Mark Chase

***EBT*** · 8th June 2006, 08:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

For example, I wouldn't give too much weight about someone diving a KISS exclusively giving advice about eCCR diving practice.

Fair comment, although I think you'll find I wasnt giving any advise, merely suggesting an open mind.

On that premise, should I assume you'll be keeping schtum about CCR cave nowadays then?

/Zak (yes, its easy to take offence the net!)

7th June 2006, 20:05	#31 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) In the same sense as buying a car, fill it up with petrol then push it to save gas ? more to do with the difference of being a passanger to your Rebreather PO2 control system rather than in control of your PO2. Matthew
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7th June 2006, 23:13	#32 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) more to do with the difference of being a passanger to your Rebreather PO2 control system rather than in control of your PO2. Believe what you want to believe but just remember that someone who probably have more hours on the KISS (manual addition) than you have on CCR disagree with you about "being a passEnger". Tell me you have never driven a car in cruisse control or taken a ride on an elevator... Never mind...
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7th June 2006, 23:21	#33 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head I am constantly amazed at what computers can do these days and i am sorry but I paid a shed load of money for my CCR and my set point controller and I damed well expect it to hold set point. I don't care what I am doing, going up, going down what ever I EXPECT it to work. I don't dive to dive the CCR I dive to dive the wreck. When I dived OC I would check my gages after about 30 -40mins just to make sure they were OK and I had enough gas. I would check my deco computer after about 30mins and when it told me i had my pre planned tolerance of deco I would ascend. If things went wrong i had plans that would allow me to survive and ascent from max depth. When I switched to CCR I expected /demanded AT LEAST this level of dive comfort. I have a HUD and apart for pre dive, in water, and bottom of shot I don't check my hand sets unless i have noting better to do. I DAMED WELL EXPECT my £800.00 HUD to flash red at the first sign of any problem. I also expect my training to prepare me for the occasions when it does flash red. Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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7th June 2006, 23:41	#34 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set. Mark, Personally, I don't think we are there yet independent of what others might think. You do need to know your PO2 at all times, and you do not need to be staring at your display. It only takes a second for me to scan the PO2 display and I don't think that qualifies as "staring". BTW, 40 mins between checking your SPG is too long IMHO.
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8th June 2006, 02:58	#35 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,325	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I am constantly amazed at what computers can do these days and i am sorry but I paid a shed load of money for my CCR and my set point controller and I damed well expect it to hold set point. I don't care what I am doing, going up, going down what ever I EXPECT it to work. I don't dive to dive the CCR I dive to dive the wreck. When I dived OC I would check my gages after about 30 -40mins just to make sure they were OK and I had enough gas. I would check my deco computer after about 30mins and when it told me i had my pre planned tolerance of deco I would ascend. If things went wrong i had plans that would allow me to survive and ascent from max depth. When I switched to CCR I expected /demanded AT LEAST this level of dive comfort. I have a HUD and apart for pre dive, in water, and bottom of shot I don't check my hand sets unless i have noting better to do. I DAMED WELL EXPECT my £800.00 HUD to flash red at the first sign of any problem. I also expect my training to prepare me for the occasions when it does flash red. Apart from that I have absolutely no intention of spending a large proportion of my limited dive time staring at a hand set. ATB Mark Chase Expecting or demanding it to always work wont change the reality that it wont. There is nothing more deadly than an eccr that is almost always 100% reliable. Divers will get complacent will trust the controller/hud and when/if it screws up that one time they will be dead. IMO its crazy to 100% trust a controller any controller. I find checking my handsets to be quick easy and in all honesty gives me a nice warm fuzzy fealing that all is right in the world. At moments during any dive I check how Im feeling, check the deco requirement, check the time, check the environment, check the depth - why not check the most critical -that the life support system is working?. I find all checks to be important and very reasuring. Of course you dont have to be checking every 5 mins. At depth the ppo2 drop is often so slow you dont have to check for ages, on ascents you have to check more often. When you know when to check and how often to check you find yourself checking less. If you really want a controller you can trust 100% and fly confidently just off the HUD - why on earth did you fix up a non working 2nd hand HH on your unit??? Doesnt make sense to me. Mark I appreciate your desire to be able to trust the controller/hud - but you have to live in the real world (if you want to remain living in it) - there is no such thing as 100% reliable. I personally think the 1 second spent cross checking my handset with the HUD is 1 second well spent. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 8th June 2006 at 03:03.
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8th June 2006, 04:57	#36 (permalink)
MHD Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Brisbane, QLD, Australia Posts: 239	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Believe what you want to believe but just remember that someone who probably have more hours on the KISS (manual addition) than you have on CCR disagree with you about "being a passEnger". Tell me you have never driven a car in cruisse control or taken a ride on an elevator... Never mind... Phi, while you are emphasizing spelling, you really should pay attention to punctuation, the “?” does not indicated a definitive point of view, but in this case a tentative answer to someone elses question. As for “I’ve done more than you” comments, I think your flirtation with DIR and the Fridge is coming out, you sound like George Matthew
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8th June 2006, 06:45	#37 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by MHD) ...you sound like George... No need to get nasty here...
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8th June 2006, 07:31	#38 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head I fully support the idea of always knowing your PP02. I put a HUD on my Classic immediately because it was imposable to always know my PP02 without one. Ignoring the HH hud at the moment which has problems and IS forcing me to look at my hand sets all the time, my old HUD worked brilliantly. Uri's HUD had independent red & green LEDs for each cell and showed set point of 1.3 with a big obvious three greens throughout the dive. With this HUD I could see errors in individual cells immediately as they occurred and cell movement of +/- 0.1. Flashing green or green red on any cell would lead to a check of hand sets and plumbed in VR3 for verification. It worked. I always knew my PP02 was within tolerance Why I should trust the hand sets any more than I trusted the HUD I have no idea. Why people consider it safer to check their hand sets once every 5 mins (and in my experience they don't do it that often) rather than have the information constantly available, I also have no idea. The thread is drifting off into safety issues of monitoring PP02. My I EXPECT post was aimed as the set point controller. I expect it to hold set point. If it doesn't then my HUD will tell me. I see absolutely no point in tasking my self to have to manually run the unit unless its broken. However in this instance it appears to be the HUD thats broken so I am running the head on the hand sets. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

8th June 2006, 07:37	#39 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head [quote=Drmike] Quote: If you really want a controller you can trust 100% and fly confidently just off the HUD - why on earth did you fix up a non working 2nd hand HH on your unit??? Doesn't make sense to me. Do you know something about the unit I bought that i don't? I was told it had just been serviced and it was in full working condition. Obviously my problems since with the HUD raise suspicion but I couldn't know that without diving it. Quote: Mark I appreciate your desire to be able to trust the controller/hud - but you have to live in the real world (if you want to remain living in it) - there is no such thing as 100% reliable. I personally think the 1 second spent cross checking my handset with the HUD is 1 second well spent. An yet people dived the classic for years with only one source of info. Two hand sets cross calibrated?? I added a VR3 and a HUD straight away to spread the responsibility. All new CCRs have a HUD and there is a damed good reason for this. I look forward to the HUD that displays actual PP02 numbers. It exists already. ATB Mark Chase __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

8th June 2006, 08:04	#40 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,972	Re: First Two dives on the Hammer Head Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) For example, I wouldn't give too much weight about someone diving a KISS exclusively giving advice about eCCR diving practice. Fair comment, although I think you'll find I wasnt giving any advise, merely suggesting an open mind. On that premise, should I assume you'll be keeping schtum about CCR cave nowadays then? /Zak (yes, its easy to take offence the net!) __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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