Buddy Clean? or different cleaning solution.

***jradomski*** · 17th May 2005, 22:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Henry)

Can you tell me why Listerine is not recommended?

Thanks
Henry

alcohol based

1) looses effectiveness quickly + needs high concentration
2) has a poor kiill spectrum
3) damages seals

FathomsDown · 18th May 2005, 08:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by TonyD)

Given the increasing availability of Virkon ( Human Style ), why play Russian Roulette with an Animal only grade product ??

Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public?

Underwaterbear · 26th May 2005, 04:29

jradomski said:

Quote:

Do a search on "virkon s" and youll find all you need to know.. BTW listerine, betadyne, saniside and lot more were not recommended.. Trigen II was approved conditionally because it needed more human testing but didn;t have as high a kill rate as Virkoon s.. SDS has a link on their site to the report... I have been recommending it to my students probably about 3 years now.

Quote:

Bettadyne is not a good choice for severa reasons..
1 - it typically discolors many plastics and materials..
2 - if there is ANY residue left and the diver inhales this its not good.. If you don;t care about #1, andyou can guarantee no residue (this requires alot of flushing) its an ok choice.. It still does not have a kill spectrumof manyof the others..

Wound cleaning is one think a breathing loop is a whole different story...

Betadyne was rejected in the studyI pointed to mainly because the potential for diver reaction.. Some people react VIOLENTLY to betadyne...

Hi Joe,

I read the Canadian defence report just now and unless I'm skip reading, it doesn't mention betadyne or any Iodine based disinfectant for that matter.

I found this link to a fact sheet where they state its disinfectant qualities. It sounds like it supports the idea that this stuff is a pretty decent broad spectrum antimicrobial agent. After all it;s the first choice in hospitals all over the globe.

Further I have used 10:1 dilutions fo PVP iodine solution in plastic tubs for fish surgery for many years and not had staining. Although if you used it neat that might be a different story!

Can you elaborate on your source for your statements in the second quote? There are two points that are concerning: the residue issue and also your statement about violent reactions both appear contrary to the bulk of literature available regarding this extremely widely used antiseptic.

Cheers
UWB

PS: For interest here are the usage notes I follow:

Quote:

Liquid Iodine- Type Disinfectant
May be mixed in water without regard to water hardness. When used at recommended dilutions, the solution has a rich amber color which remains during germicidal action. When the color fades, its effectiveness is reduced, thus the user has a visual check on proper solution strength. At sanitizing strengths it has a low toxicity, is nonirritating, nonstaining on dishware and utensils, and has no offensive odor. Immersion shall be for at least 1 minute in a solution of not less than 12. 5 ppm having a ph not higher than 5. 0 and a temperature of at least 75 F

***jradomski*** · 26th May 2005, 18:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear)

jradomski said:

Hi Joe,

I read the Canadian defence report just now and unless I'm skip reading, it doesn't mention betadyne or any Iodine based disinfectant for that matter.

I found this link to a fact sheet where they state its disinfectant qualities. It sounds like it supports the idea that this stuff is a pretty decent broad spectrum antimicrobial agent. After all it;s the first choice in hospitals all over the globe.

Further I have used 10:1 dilutions fo PVP iodine solution in plastic tubs for fish surgery for many years and not had staining. Although if you used it neat that might be a different story!

Can you elaborate on your source for your statements in the second quote? There are two points that are concerning: the residue issue and also your statement about violent reactions both appear contrary to the bulk of literature available regarding this extremely widely used antiseptic.

Cheers
UWB

PS: For interest here are the usage notes I follow:

Here is a link to a msds
http://www.pharma.com/MSDSs/betadine...on_10-MSDS.pdf
It CLEARLY shows that if ingested seek medical attention.. The Virkon MSDS show to seek medical attention only if ingested in powder form (where it is highly concentrated), in fact all the warnings for Virkon are for the POWDER form not once its mixed..

An excerpt from the MSDS
Conditions that may be aggravated by exposure to povidone iodine: asthma, chronic bronchitis, and thyroid disorders.
This alone should cause some concern especially the first one which is quite common..

There are many people that ANY form of iodine react violently to even with very minor traces.. This is the primary chemical responsible for some peoples alergic reactions to eating such things as shrimp, lobster ect...

I have to look for the report (I have it somkewhere) that cautioned against betadine (you are correct in stating it wasnt specifically listed in the CF report).. I should have worded my first staement a bit better..

Underwaterbear · 27th May 2005, 01:06

Hi Joe,

Thanks for getting back to me. I've read the MSDS you linked to. Some interesting info there particularly if you are into bomb making.

On a serious note I'm still a bit unsure of your vigorous support for another product when your points about it's relative safety are equal for betadine. The MSDS is clearly talking about hazards in it's undiluted form. The adverse effects are all the result of "overexposure" to "high concentrations" by immersion, ingestion or breathing aerosols. These are about as likely when following directions as chewing on the virkon tablets.

I put it to you that used in accordance to directions it is no more hazardous than Virkon which can cause problems before it is mixed. Lets face it if you can't follow directions for disinfectig your unit, you probably shouldn't be diving it!

As for the allergy to iodine and shellfish issue it is one often surrounded by confusion. Basically there is no evidence that shellfish allergy has anything to do with the high iodine content of such foods. In fact the anaphylactic reactive constituents in seafood are thought to be groups of protiens called tropomyosins and parvalbumins which probably have nothing to do with the elemental iodine found in seafoods and most probably your table salt. Iodine as found in betadine is tied up in a very stable complex called Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) -Iodine which, in addition to being used widely as a scrub disinfectant, is also a historically a common radio contrast media where it is injected into the blood stream for xray analysis. The reactions you mentioned are more common here obviously since it is a rather higher effective concentration and delivery method.

In conclusion I reckon it's fine to wash your loop with a 10:1 solution of betadine followed by a fresh water rinse, you can even clear up a nasty strep throat by gargling it for 30 secs, but I wouldn't recommend drinking it neat, smoking it, shooting up with it, bathing in it for long periods or mixing it with peroxide.

***jradomski*** · 27th May 2005, 05:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear)

Hi Joe,

Thanks for getting back to me. I've read the MSDS you linked to. Some interesting info there particularly if you are into bomb making.

On a serious note I'm still a bit unsure of your vigorous support for another product when your points about it's relative safety are equal for betadine. The MSDS is clearly talking about hazards in it's undiluted form. The adverse effects are all the result of "overexposure" to "high concentrations" by immersion, ingestion or breathing aerosols. These are about as likely when following directions as chewing on the virkon tablets.

I put it to you that used in accordance to directions it is no more hazardous than Virkon which can cause problems before it is mixed. Lets face it if you can't follow directions for disinfectig your unit, you probably shouldn't be diving it!

As for the allergy to iodine and shellfish issue it is one often surrounded by confusion. Basically there is no evidence that shellfish allergy has anything to do with the high iodine content of such foods. In fact the anaphylactic reactive constituents in seafood are thought to be groups of protiens called tropomyosins and parvalbumins which probably have nothing to do with the elemental iodine found in seafoods and most probably your table salt. Iodine as found in betadine is tied up in a very stable complex called Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) -Iodine which, in addition to being used widely as a scrub disinfectant, is also a historically a common radio contrast media where it is injected into the blood stream for xray analysis. The reactions you mentioned are more common here obviously since it is a rather higher effective concentration and delivery method.

In conclusion I reckon it's fine to wash your loop with a 10:1 solution of betadine followed by a fresh water rinse, you can even clear up a nasty strep throat by gargling it for 30 secs, but I wouldn't recommend drinking it neat, smoking it, shooting up with it, bathing in it for long periods or mixing it with peroxide.

I know I am not allergic to any form of Iodine so in a pinch I would not have any problems using it (I probably would choose a lesser acceptable solution like listerine first - reason below).. I would not however use it on gear that MIGHT be used by another person, I just couldn't take the chance of an alergic reaction or some other reaction knowing its warned against (remember I am in The US - I don't want to get sued).. The alergic reaction worries me less than the potential for it to effect people that may have or had asthma. I know this definately goes unreported to many diving instructors, and knowing several asthmatics (controlled without any normal reactions) all of a sudden get a bad episode when there is a bad irritant present... I guess its about minimizing risks as much as possible.. Some rebreathers are much more difficult to rinse than others...

I have been using virkon for several years now and am very happy with it.. I am also more confortable knowing all the warnings are about the powder form.. I guess part of my disdain for betadine comes from almost choking underwater... I cleaned my Rebreather with it and rinsed thoroughly but somehow I had some residue.. It was the most unforgetting experience I have ever had under water... It is also the only time I ever abandoned the rebreather loop... Thankfully I was in fresh water.. I took a mouthfull of it and spit it out.. boy did it help alot.. It definately was only a small bit, but it was horrible (I found liquid that has come in contact with lime to be much less offensive)..
I have purposely "tasted" virkon to see if I would have any adverse reaction (it was very diluted) and I didn't..

Andy Del · 27th May 2005, 05:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Could someone in the know please tell us what bugs remain after a breather has been washed in fresh water and dried thoroughly?

I was crap at biology at uni and it was a while ago but I can’t help thinking that none will remain in a clean dry environment.

I asked this quesiton as well on Diveoz (I think, maybe I imagined asking it decided not to stir the pot) and got no replies.

So, (cracking knuckles), seeing as biology was my best subject at school, I reckon that this is in the same boat as washing the dishes. Use water, use soap, and don't put away wet for mould to start growing. If you'd let me drink from your glasses and eat off your plates and then reuse them after washing, then a good old wash in water and a dry in air certainly isn't going to turn your Rebreather into a host for golden staph, plague or foot in mouth desease.

I'd go on, but it's the 27th and I always clean out the KISS on the 27th. That way february doesn't mis out.

decoweenie · 7th June 2005, 16:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by FathomsDown)

Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public?

I would like to try this as well...

Is there anyone on this list selling Virkon in powder or tablet forms, and shipping to UAE ? Payment will be pre-made by CC.

Reply on/off-list as you please (email is decoweenie@yahoo.com)

Gadget · 7th June 2005, 17:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by FathomsDown)

Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public?

Have found a supplier who will supply vikron s to me in 5 kg tubs, I asked him to see if he can get vikron in powder or tablet form. He will get back to me in the next couple of days.

Gadget · 10th June 2005, 12:17

Have spoken to the supplier local to me and he was told that virkon s in the uk is safe for human use, his distributer informs him they sell it to the catering industry for cleaning surfaces to prevent the spread of salminela.

17th May 2005, 22:23	#31 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Henry) Can you tell me why Listerine is not recommended? Thanks Henry alcohol based 1) looses effectiveness quickly + needs high concentration 2) has a poor kiill spectrum 3) damages seals __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

18th May 2005, 08:44	#32 (permalink)
FathomsDown New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London Posts: 76	Quote: (Originally Posted by TonyD) Given the increasing availability of Virkon ( Human Style ), why play Russian Roulette with an Animal only grade product ?? Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public? __________________ Dive deep, stay long, deco for friggin' ages.
(Offline)

26th May 2005, 04:29	#33 (permalink)
Underwaterbear A Prismer in Megland Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 192	jradomski said: Quote: Do a search on "virkon s" and youll find all you need to know.. BTW listerine, betadyne, saniside and lot more were not recommended.. Trigen II was approved conditionally because it needed more human testing but didn;t have as high a kill rate as Virkoon s.. SDS has a link on their site to the report... I have been recommending it to my students probably about 3 years now. Quote: Bettadyne is not a good choice for severa reasons.. 1 - it typically discolors many plastics and materials.. 2 - if there is ANY residue left and the diver inhales this its not good.. If you don;t care about #1, andyou can guarantee no residue (this requires alot of flushing) its an ok choice.. It still does not have a kill spectrumof manyof the others.. Wound cleaning is one think a breathing loop is a whole different story... Betadyne was rejected in the studyI pointed to mainly because the potential for diver reaction.. Some people react VIOLENTLY to betadyne... Hi Joe, I read the Canadian defence report just now and unless I'm skip reading, it doesn't mention betadyne or any Iodine based disinfectant for that matter. I found this link to a fact sheet where they state its disinfectant qualities. It sounds like it supports the idea that this stuff is a pretty decent broad spectrum antimicrobial agent. After all it;s the first choice in hospitals all over the globe. Further I have used 10:1 dilutions fo PVP iodine solution in plastic tubs for fish surgery for many years and not had staining. Although if you used it neat that might be a different story! Can you elaborate on your source for your statements in the second quote? There are two points that are concerning: the residue issue and also your statement about violent reactions both appear contrary to the bulk of literature available regarding this extremely widely used antiseptic. Cheers UWB PS: For interest here are the usage notes I follow: Quote: Liquid Iodine- Type Disinfectant May be mixed in water without regard to water hardness. When used at recommended dilutions, the solution has a rich amber color which remains during germicidal action. When the color fades, its effectiveness is reduced, thus the user has a visual check on proper solution strength. At sanitizing strengths it has a low toxicity, is nonirritating, nonstaining on dishware and utensils, and has no offensive odor. Immersion shall be for at least 1 minute in a solution of not less than 12. 5 ppm having a ph not higher than 5. 0 and a temperature of at least 75 F
(Offline)

26th May 2005, 18:42	#34 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear) jradomski said: Hi Joe, I read the Canadian defence report just now and unless I'm skip reading, it doesn't mention betadyne or any Iodine based disinfectant for that matter. I found this link to a fact sheet where they state its disinfectant qualities. It sounds like it supports the idea that this stuff is a pretty decent broad spectrum antimicrobial agent. After all it;s the first choice in hospitals all over the globe. Further I have used 10:1 dilutions fo PVP iodine solution in plastic tubs for fish surgery for many years and not had staining. Although if you used it neat that might be a different story! Can you elaborate on your source for your statements in the second quote? There are two points that are concerning: the residue issue and also your statement about violent reactions both appear contrary to the bulk of literature available regarding this extremely widely used antiseptic. Cheers UWB PS: For interest here are the usage notes I follow: Here is a link to a msds http://www.pharma.com/MSDSs/betadine...on_10-MSDS.pdf It CLEARLY shows that if ingested seek medical attention.. The Virkon MSDS show to seek medical attention only if ingested in powder form (where it is highly concentrated), in fact all the warnings for Virkon are for the POWDER form not once its mixed.. An excerpt from the MSDS Conditions that may be aggravated by exposure to povidone iodine: asthma, chronic bronchitis, and thyroid disorders. This alone should cause some concern especially the first one which is quite common.. There are many people that ANY form of iodine react violently to even with very minor traces.. This is the primary chemical responsible for some peoples alergic reactions to eating such things as shrimp, lobster ect... I have to look for the report (I have it somkewhere) that cautioned against betadine (you are correct in stating it wasnt specifically listed in the CF report).. I should have worded my first staement a bit better.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

27th May 2005, 01:06	#35 (permalink)
Underwaterbear A Prismer in Megland Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 192	Hi Joe, Thanks for getting back to me. I've read the MSDS you linked to. Some interesting info there particularly if you are into bomb making. On a serious note I'm still a bit unsure of your vigorous support for another product when your points about it's relative safety are equal for betadine. The MSDS is clearly talking about hazards in it's undiluted form. The adverse effects are all the result of "overexposure" to "high concentrations" by immersion, ingestion or breathing aerosols. These are about as likely when following directions as chewing on the virkon tablets. I put it to you that used in accordance to directions it is no more hazardous than Virkon which can cause problems before it is mixed. Lets face it if you can't follow directions for disinfectig your unit, you probably shouldn't be diving it! As for the allergy to iodine and shellfish issue it is one often surrounded by confusion. Basically there is no evidence that shellfish allergy has anything to do with the high iodine content of such foods. In fact the anaphylactic reactive constituents in seafood are thought to be groups of protiens called tropomyosins and parvalbumins which probably have nothing to do with the elemental iodine found in seafoods and most probably your table salt. Iodine as found in betadine is tied up in a very stable complex called Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) -Iodine which, in addition to being used widely as a scrub disinfectant, is also a historically a common radio contrast media where it is injected into the blood stream for xray analysis. The reactions you mentioned are more common here obviously since it is a rather higher effective concentration and delivery method. In conclusion I reckon it's fine to wash your loop with a 10:1 solution of betadine followed by a fresh water rinse, you can even clear up a nasty strep throat by gargling it for 30 secs, but I wouldn't recommend drinking it neat, smoking it, shooting up with it, bathing in it for long periods or mixing it with peroxide.
(Offline)

27th May 2005, 05:07	#36 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,004	Quote: (Originally Posted by Underwaterbear) Hi Joe, Thanks for getting back to me. I've read the MSDS you linked to. Some interesting info there particularly if you are into bomb making. On a serious note I'm still a bit unsure of your vigorous support for another product when your points about it's relative safety are equal for betadine. The MSDS is clearly talking about hazards in it's undiluted form. The adverse effects are all the result of "overexposure" to "high concentrations" by immersion, ingestion or breathing aerosols. These are about as likely when following directions as chewing on the virkon tablets. I put it to you that used in accordance to directions it is no more hazardous than Virkon which can cause problems before it is mixed. Lets face it if you can't follow directions for disinfectig your unit, you probably shouldn't be diving it! As for the allergy to iodine and shellfish issue it is one often surrounded by confusion. Basically there is no evidence that shellfish allergy has anything to do with the high iodine content of such foods. In fact the anaphylactic reactive constituents in seafood are thought to be groups of protiens called tropomyosins and parvalbumins which probably have nothing to do with the elemental iodine found in seafoods and most probably your table salt. Iodine as found in betadine is tied up in a very stable complex called Polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP) -Iodine which, in addition to being used widely as a scrub disinfectant, is also a historically a common radio contrast media where it is injected into the blood stream for xray analysis. The reactions you mentioned are more common here obviously since it is a rather higher effective concentration and delivery method. In conclusion I reckon it's fine to wash your loop with a 10:1 solution of betadine followed by a fresh water rinse, you can even clear up a nasty strep throat by gargling it for 30 secs, but I wouldn't recommend drinking it neat, smoking it, shooting up with it, bathing in it for long periods or mixing it with peroxide. I know I am not allergic to any form of Iodine so in a pinch I would not have any problems using it (I probably would choose a lesser acceptable solution like listerine first - reason below).. I would not however use it on gear that MIGHT be used by another person, I just couldn't take the chance of an alergic reaction or some other reaction knowing its warned against (remember I am in The US - I don't want to get sued).. The alergic reaction worries me less than the potential for it to effect people that may have or had asthma. I know this definately goes unreported to many diving instructors, and knowing several asthmatics (controlled without any normal reactions) all of a sudden get a bad episode when there is a bad irritant present... I guess its about minimizing risks as much as possible.. Some rebreathers are much more difficult to rinse than others... I have been using virkon for several years now and am very happy with it.. I am also more confortable knowing all the warnings are about the powder form.. I guess part of my disdain for betadine comes from almost choking underwater... I cleaned my Rebreather with it and rinsed thoroughly but somehow I had some residue.. It was the most unforgetting experience I have ever had under water... It is also the only time I ever abandoned the rebreather loop... Thankfully I was in fresh water.. I took a mouthfull of it and spit it out.. boy did it help alot.. It definately was only a small bit, but it was horrible (I found liquid that has come in contact with lime to be much less offensive).. I have purposely "tasted" virkon to see if I would have any adverse reaction (it was very diluted) and I didn't.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Offline)

27th May 2005, 05:22	#37 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 422	Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Could someone in the know please tell us what bugs remain after a breather has been washed in fresh water and dried thoroughly? I was crap at biology at uni and it was a while ago but I can’t help thinking that none will remain in a clean dry environment. I asked this quesiton as well on Diveoz (I think, maybe I imagined asking it decided not to stir the pot) and got no replies. So, (cracking knuckles), seeing as biology was my best subject at school, I reckon that this is in the same boat as washing the dishes. Use water, use soap, and don't put away wet for mould to start growing. If you'd let me drink from your glasses and eat off your plates and then reuse them after washing, then a good old wash in water and a dry in air certainly isn't going to turn your Rebreather into a host for golden staph, plague or foot in mouth desease. I'd go on, but it's the 27th and I always clean out the KISS on the 27th. That way february doesn't mis out. __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
(Offline)

7th June 2005, 16:38	#38 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Quote: (Originally Posted by FathomsDown) Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public? I would like to try this as well... Is there anyone on this list selling Virkon in powder or tablet forms, and shipping to UAE ? Payment will be pre-made by CC. Reply on/off-list as you please (email is decoweenie@yahoo.com)
(Offline)

7th June 2005, 17:33	#39 (permalink)
Gadget Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon rEvo Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: Hoddesdon, Herts. Posts: 163	Quote: (Originally Posted by FathomsDown) Does anyone have details of a supplier in th UK who will sell Virkon to the public? Have found a supplier who will supply vikron s to me in 5 kg tubs, I asked him to see if he can get vikron in powder or tablet form. He will get back to me in the next couple of days. __________________ Si Lawrence www.divehdi.com
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10th June 2005, 12:17	#40 (permalink)
Gadget Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon rEvo Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: Hoddesdon, Herts. Posts: 163	Virkon s Have spoken to the supplier local to me and he was told that virkon s in the uk is safe for human use, his distributer informs him they sell it to the catering industry for cleaning surfaces to prevent the spread of salminela. __________________ Si Lawrence www.divehdi.com
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