[Gill Envy]

i am personally very dissappointed that the thread "Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration" thread got closed, and especially with a final statement “Until such time (as an accident/fatality database is formed) there will be no more of this counter productive speculation on Rebreather World.” This kind of catagorical statement suggests virtual cenorship and I hope it is reversed. If we can't compare and contrast track records and possible flaws of rebreathers on this site even in a speculative, opinionated way, then where can we? Just because a particular mode is under the gun, and just because we are, by necessity, left to hypothesis and speculation about the higher rate of fatalities doesn’t mean we can’t or weren’t having a useful discussions. Hypothesize and speculate we must, for the likelihood of never being able to definitively conclude the cause of rebreather deaths, given that the evidence of exact failure all too often leaves no trace. I am seriously dissappointed in an administrator taking what looks like a very biased power grab. I hope this move is reconsidered, and the thread re-oppened.

[PeteS]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

i am personally very dissappointed that the thread "Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration" thread got closed, and especially with a final statement “Until such time (as an accident/fatality database is formed) there will be no more of this counter productive speculation on Rebreather World.” This kind of catagorical statement suggests virtual cenorship and I hope it is reversed. If we can't compare and contrast track records and possible flaws of rebreathers on this site even in a speculative, opinionated way, then where can we? Just because a particular mode is under the gun, and just because we are, by necessity, left to hypothesis and speculation about the higher rate of fatalities doesn’t mean we can’t or weren’t having a useful discussions. Hypothesize and speculate we must, for the likelihood of never being able to definitively conclude the cause of rebreather deaths, given that the evidence of exact failure all too often leaves no trace. I am seriously dissappointed in an administrator taking what looks like a very biased power grab. I hope this move is reconsidered, and the thread re-oppened.

I agree 100%. The ability to have full and frank discussions on this board is what attracted me to it. There has been one other occasion when I have felt that a thread was closed for the wrong reasons. I hope don't see a third.

[silentscuba]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

i am personally very dissappointed that the thread "Rebreather Safety: Megalodon vs. Inspiration" thread got closed, and especially with a final statement “Until such time (as an accident/fatality database is formed) there will be no more of this counter productive speculation on Rebreather World.” This kind of catagorical statement suggests virtual cenorship and I hope it is reversed. If we can't compare and contrast track records and possible flaws of rebreathers on this site even in a speculative, opinionated way, then where can we? Just because a particular mode is under the gun, and just because we are, by necessity, left to hypothesis and speculation about the higher rate of fatalities doesn’t mean we can’t or weren’t having a useful discussions. Hypothesize and speculate we must, for the likelihood of never being able to definitively conclude the cause of rebreather deaths, given that the evidence of exact failure all too often leaves no trace. I am seriously dissappointed in an administrator taking what looks like a very biased power grab. I hope this move is reconsidered, and the thread re-oppened.

Gill- I totally agree with your thoughts. We will never have much factual information or data, so all we can do is give it our best guess. With everyone throwing in their own thoughts, maybe we can come up with some information that we might be able to hook into and try and turn the tide.

We have to be active in trying to promote further safety ideas. Something is wrong with what we are doing, to many people are dying.

Sincerely,

A very concerned CCR Diver

[koputai]

My guess is that some manufacturers or their lawyers have had a word to someone around here, and through fear of litigation, the thread has been pulled.
The US is the country of NO FREE SPEECH.

Jason.

[hirudin]

Oh, come on everyone! If the discussion had remained on topic, the thread would still be open and the discussion would be lively. But instead it devolved into embarrisingly inappropriate comparisons and conjecture.

This is nothing to do with lawyers, it's about meaningful contributions in a courteous and respectful environment.

[JRC]

I AGREE 100% WITH GIL ENVY ALSO. THANK YOU FOR POSTING IT. CLOSING THE THREAD MAKES IT SEEM LIKE WE ARE JUST HIDING IT UNDER THE TABLE, THAT WAY EVERYONE CAN FEEL BETTER ABOUT THEIR RIGS. IF ONE LIFE CAN BE SAVED THROUGH OPEN DISCUSSION TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT FLAWS IN A SYSTEM OR REASONS FOR A MISHAP, THEN ISN'T IT WORTH IT?

[Offgas]

Agreed. I was very suprised to see this thread closed. In the end, all that we have is some varying degree of speculation.

Offgas

[scubagrunt]

Quote: (Originally Posted by koputai)

My guess is that some manufacturers or their lawyers have had a word to someone around here, and through fear of litigation, the thread has been pulled.
The US is the country of NO FREE SPEECH.

Jason.

Don’t underestimate the power of some. Free Speech? Huh, what is that is right! We are always going to run into people who don’t like the way a thread is going and then put pressure on others to close/stop it. For example I had a picture in the gallery that a certain person did not like, so I was asked to remove it. So to keep the peace I did. Here we go again and again. Why can’t we all just play nice and let others express there opinions, if we do not share the same opinion or feeling then we can state our opinion and move on. Just my un-solicited thoughts, I will now get off the soap box.

[silent running]

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

I am seriously dissappointed in an administrator taking what looks like a very biased power grab. I hope this move is reconsidered, and the thread re-oppened.

Hello Gillenvy, I too wish there was a way to have kept the thread going and productive. But I don't understand this tendency to assume the worst. The thread was degenerating and very problematic. I think the thread's title was a big part of the problem-it was very presumptuous. It's not hard to see the many possible bad outcomes...

Determining the relative safety of one CCR to another is very difficult, to say the least, maybe impossible at this point. Safety concerns in CCR design are approached differently by each manufacturer. Why? Because even a bunch of engineers who have spent lots of time designing units and have lots of knowledge can't anticipate all the different ways in which people will use their units. Then there is the many differences in individual physiology-differences in CO2 retention, O2 toxicity thresholds, general health. There really is not a lot of knowledge about constant, high PPO2 diving. We are all pioneers, like it or not.

So how can us non-engineers going to tackle a subject as big as safety factors in CCR design? Very slowly and deliberately. By asking questions and listening to those who know more than us. And by having a healthy respect for the limits of the knowledge base, both the manufacurers and our own. If we come to a blank spot in our knowledge, stop and find out more, then resume the questioning. I'm all for hashing out what we can about subjects like this, but I bet we would get farther, quicker if the questions were posed either more generally-"What are the safety factors in CCR design?" or more specificly-"O2 injection point" thread. -Andy

[schford]

Morning all :-)

Just to put you all at ease - there was no big bad lawyer or Manufacturer threatening me.

I closed the thread as I had a number of concerned PMs that it was getting out of hand, I agreed.

I think we absolutely must discuss accidents as I said, but we will do it from a position of as much fact as possible which is why I am starting RAID - the first draft of this will be in and working this weekend.

From there we can have informed debate (or as informed as possible)....like I said there will be no more speculation.

Before criticising, why don't you wait and see what it's like and how it works - after all I don't think we have done too bad a job on the rest of the site.....