Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 31st March 2006, 01:00

I live in Florida, and I do warm water diving for the most part especially when compared to water temperatures of Europe. Typically, local water temperatures range between 65-85F/18-30C but average about 70-75F/20-25C. I always dive dry.

I previously had a DUI 200 gram Thinsulate jumpsuit (I have a DUI TLS350 suit which I love). However, it was quite bulky, required too much lead, restricted my range of motion, and it did not stand up well to machine washings. Also, it was killing me to wear this on the dive boat in the Florida Summer sun though it was fine in the water. Most seriously, its nylon covering ended out blocking my drysuit exhaust valve one time, which was my last straw for using these ever again. I have a set that has only been used about ten times if someone wants to make me an offer to purchase them.

Currently, I am wearing Andy's 100 gram stretch Thinsulate thermals inside my drysuit. The Andy's thermals are great because they do not restrict my range of motion, they are lighter, they hold up to machine washings well, and they do not have the nylon covering, allowing them to breathe when I have my suit open to the air. (We do not need wind exposure protection in this climate.) Also, the thermals are fine for the water tmperatures in my usual ranges and even cooler. (If Andy's would have made a 50 gram Thinsulate suit, I would have gotten that instead, and that would have been fine.)

My Andy's thermals are getting old, and it is time for a new set. Unfortunately, Andy's just shut down. So, I can't buy another set for a replacement. I am looking for a good substitute.

Whatever I get, I am looking for something that will provide adequate thermal protection in case of a long deco with a flooded drysuit while at the colder end of my diving spectrum. For this reason, I have already ruled out fleece because it does not retain sufficient thermal protection when wet. So, please don't tell me about your wonderful fleece. Fleece is out for me.

Recently, someone brought up Northern Diver Flectalon in the 100 gram suit. I am told that it is somewhat thinner than Thinsulate, requires less lead, and is just as, if not more, effective than Thinsulate when wet. Northern Diver also claims that Flectalon holds up better than Thinsulate with washing. http://www.ndiver.com/site/undersuit...undersuit.html. I have no idea how easy it is to move about when wearing a suit like this.

Is there anyone familiar with both Thinsulate and Flectalon that can give any kind of comparison? Thanks.

***diverklondike*** · 31st March 2006, 01:15

For Florida diving I prefer Polartec...

It has none of the issues that you have mentioned and are easily layered..

Dive Safe..

Mark

**Gill Envy** · 31st March 2006, 01:53

it's capaleen all the way for me. I use a combination of shirts and long underwear, mostly patagonia brand in my dry suit. When you are on the boat, you can take a layer or two off the top without taking the whole suit off. It's a bit bulky but less binding than a full suit and keeps me way warmer than any Dry suit companies undergarment ever did. AND it keeps me warm when it gets moist, it whicks the water/condensation away from your skin. the stuff is amazing and is good for many other outdoor uses. I've had one of the pairs of long underwear for 10 years and it still keeps it's loft. check out the selection at places like www.rei.com. hope that helps

Westwinds · 31st March 2006, 04:30

Your question peaked my interest for two reasons. First I am quite familiar with the properties of thinsulate and hollofil. And second because I have never heard of this material. I did some quick research and found the following two sites with seemly credible information regarding Flectalon. The first is regarding the manufacturer and the second is from a health care journal.

Westwinds.

---

http://www.theascentgroup.co.uk/about/index.html

The Ascent Group was established in 1984 to develop Flectalon, a high-performance insulating material made from shredded metallised film, conceived as a result of research carried out by NASA into the ability of aluminised surfaces to reflect up to 95% of radiant heat. In clinical trials, Flectalon has been shown to give significantly better insulation then either Thinsulate or Hollofil and it can be specifically engineered for applications as diverse as survival equipment, cool insulation and stealth applications such as thermal camouflage.

The Ascent Group recognised that new product development was the key to securing sustainable competitive advantage and in 1993 the company decided to harness its experience in technical textiles to identify new product opportunities in related markets.

http://adc.bmjjournals.com/

http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/60/1/47?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fullte xt=flectalon&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIR STINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT

Flectalon, web of aluminised polyvinylchloride fibres, has been formulated to minimise radiant heat losses and to provide conventional insulation. Critical temperature determinations were used to assess the insulating efficacy of this and other swaddling materials in infants. The critical temperature for a baby 2 to 10 days old was 31 degrees C when naked and 23 degrees C when wrapped in a Silver Swaddler or a sheet and two blankets. The use of a quilt made with Thinsulate or Hollofil with a mass per unit area of 160 to 180 g/m2 reduced the critical temperature to 19.5 degrees C, while Flectalon of comparable weight reduced the critical temperature to 13.8 degrees C: Flectalon is thus an efficient insulator. The risk of overheating was studied by monitoring swaddled babies, rectal temperatures at various ambient temperatures. Some forms of swaddling caused increases in rectal temperatures at "normal' hospital temperatures, implying risks from warmer environments and assessments of swaddling materials should, therefore, include medical evaluation of efficiency and safety. Flectalon merits assessment in other groups at risk from hypothermia.

vid · 31st March 2006, 07:14

i use a flectalon undersuit some times - Northern Diver - if I need lots of extra warmth (i dive a neoprene dry suit)

but generally I use polartec (4th element) long jons and top - their "arctic" is equivalent to about 70 gramme - which should be up to your needs, given your location

hth

vid

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 31st March 2006, 07:40

Again, my main concern is what happens when the suit is flooded or very wet. Lots of things will work so long as the suit stays dry inside. Even fleece would be perfectly adequate for me if I were to stay dry.

I have friends that just wear lightweight long underwear in their suits, and then they use Argon if it gets cooler. Perhaps they are happy for all of the times that this combination works. However, sooner or later, they are going to have one long miserable decompression hang with a flooded suit. That is specifically what I do not want to happen for myself, and that is why I have always used some kind of Thinslate based thermals in the past.

Don't get me wrong, my suit works great. However, wrist and neck seals tear. I want to be prepared for a flood where I would need to do a long deco when the water is at the colder end of my dive water temperature spectrum, about the mid-60F range.

I am looking for the least bulky thermals that work well when flooded. In a perfect world, this would be 50 gram thinsulate with a light fleece stretch kind of design. Since I can't find this, I am looking for the next best thing.

So, how does the 100 gram Flectalon handle flooding compared to 100 gram Thinsulate? Is it in fact less bulky, and allows the diver to wear less lead?

***sadave*** · 31st March 2006, 10:41

Have never dived a Thinsulate, but I've had my Northern Diver Flectalon 200 for over 5 years now. Its still as warm as the day I bought it.

Washing? Easy, just chuck it in the washing machine, I've done this every few months for as long as I've owned it, never a problem!!! (Try that with a thinsulate!!!).

Warm when flooded? Toasty. I flooded (and I mean, COMPLETELY!!!) flooded my old neo suit, the zip busted, I still had 45mins of deco to do, in 11deg C water, and yeah, I was cold at the end of it, but not hypothermic like you would expect to be... To compare, I flooded that same suit (replaced the zip on it twice, then ended up ebaying the POS...) wearing Polyprop thermals, with 300 wt polartec pants and top, in 15deg water, with only 15mins deco, and was shivering uncontrollably by the end of it...

I couldn't possibly be happier with my flectalon! Have dived it under my tri-lam down to 7deg C water quite comfortably...

Not sure about the pricing over there, but here, they are a bit under half the price of the equivalent DUI undergarment!!! And sooo much better!

/edit: read the rest of your post...

I find it a LOT less bulky than my old polartec undergarments, and dropped a coupla kg's of lead too...

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 31st March 2006, 15:47

Okay, Sadave. Now, we are starting to get somewhere here. Do you know if one can purchase the suit without getting that mesh over the wrist/forearm area (having the regular fabric go all the way to the cuff)?

***sadave*** · 1st April 2006, 00:03

Honestly no idea, sorry... I know they don't do custom sizing (15 sizes should cover it!), so not sure if they will do any mods etc...

Having said that, what's wrong with the mesh on the wrist? I've never had an issue with it?

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 1st April 2006, 03:23

I phoned them today. They say that they will do custom, and that they will eliminate the mesh on the wrists . . . for a fee (fair enough as long as they will do it

).

I will be following up. Still undecided about going with this or a Diving Concepts 100 gram stretch Thinsulate suit. Decisions, decisions!

31st March 2006, 01:00	#1 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,896	Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet I live in Florida, and I do warm water diving for the most part especially when compared to water temperatures of Europe. Typically, local water temperatures range between 65-85F/18-30C but average about 70-75F/20-25C. I always dive dry. I previously had a DUI 200 gram Thinsulate jumpsuit (I have a DUI TLS350 suit which I love). However, it was quite bulky, required too much lead, restricted my range of motion, and it did not stand up well to machine washings. Also, it was killing me to wear this on the dive boat in the Florida Summer sun though it was fine in the water. Most seriously, its nylon covering ended out blocking my drysuit exhaust valve one time, which was my last straw for using these ever again. I have a set that has only been used about ten times if someone wants to make me an offer to purchase them. Currently, I am wearing Andy's 100 gram stretch Thinsulate thermals inside my drysuit. The Andy's thermals are great because they do not restrict my range of motion, they are lighter, they hold up to machine washings well, and they do not have the nylon covering, allowing them to breathe when I have my suit open to the air. (We do not need wind exposure protection in this climate.) Also, the thermals are fine for the water tmperatures in my usual ranges and even cooler. (If Andy's would have made a 50 gram Thinsulate suit, I would have gotten that instead, and that would have been fine.) My Andy's thermals are getting old, and it is time for a new set. Unfortunately, Andy's just shut down. So, I can't buy another set for a replacement. I am looking for a good substitute. Whatever I get, I am looking for something that will provide adequate thermal protection in case of a long deco with a flooded drysuit while at the colder end of my diving spectrum. For this reason, I have already ruled out fleece because it does not retain sufficient thermal protection when wet. So, please don't tell me about your wonderful fleece. Fleece is out for me. Recently, someone brought up Northern Diver Flectalon in the 100 gram suit. I am told that it is somewhat thinner than Thinsulate, requires less lead, and is just as, if not more, effective than Thinsulate when wet. Northern Diver also claims that Flectalon holds up better than Thinsulate with washing. http://www.ndiver.com/site/undersuit...undersuit.html. I have no idea how easy it is to move about when wearing a suit like this. Is there anyone familiar with both Thinsulate and Flectalon that can give any kind of comparison? Thanks. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com Last edited by ScubaDadMiami : 31st March 2006 at 01:03.
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31st March 2006, 01:15	#2 (permalink)
*diverklondike* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Delaware, USA Posts: 1,439	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet For Florida diving I prefer Polartec... It has none of the issues that you have mentioned and are easily layered.. Dive Safe.. Mark
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31st March 2006, 01:53	#3 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,226	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet it's capaleen all the way for me. I use a combination of shirts and long underwear, mostly patagonia brand in my dry suit. When you are on the boat, you can take a layer or two off the top without taking the whole suit off. It's a bit bulky but less binding than a full suit and keeps me way warmer than any Dry suit companies undergarment ever did. AND it keeps me warm when it gets moist, it whicks the water/condensation away from your skin. the stuff is amazing and is good for many other outdoor uses. I've had one of the pairs of long underwear for 10 years and it still keeps it's loft. check out the selection at places like www.rei.com. hope that helps __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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31st March 2006, 04:30	#4 (permalink)
Westwinds Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 89	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Your question peaked my interest for two reasons. First I am quite familiar with the properties of thinsulate and hollofil. And second because I have never heard of this material. I did some quick research and found the following two sites with seemly credible information regarding Flectalon. The first is regarding the manufacturer and the second is from a health care journal. Westwinds. --- http://www.theascentgroup.co.uk/about/index.html The Ascent Group was established in 1984 to develop Flectalon, a high-performance insulating material made from shredded metallised film, conceived as a result of research carried out by NASA into the ability of aluminised surfaces to reflect up to 95% of radiant heat. In clinical trials, Flectalon has been shown to give significantly better insulation then either Thinsulate or Hollofil and it can be specifically engineered for applications as diverse as survival equipment, cool insulation and stealth applications such as thermal camouflage. The Ascent Group recognised that new product development was the key to securing sustainable competitive advantage and in 1993 the company decided to harness its experience in technical textiles to identify new product opportunities in related markets. http://adc.bmjjournals.com/ http://adc.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/abstract/60/1/47?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&fullte xt=flectalon&andorexactfulltext=and&searchid=1&FIR STINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&resourcetype=HWCIT Flectalon, web of aluminised polyvinylchloride fibres, has been formulated to minimise radiant heat losses and to provide conventional insulation. Critical temperature determinations were used to assess the insulating efficacy of this and other swaddling materials in infants. The critical temperature for a baby 2 to 10 days old was 31 degrees C when naked and 23 degrees C when wrapped in a Silver Swaddler or a sheet and two blankets. The use of a quilt made with Thinsulate or Hollofil with a mass per unit area of 160 to 180 g/m2 reduced the critical temperature to 19.5 degrees C, while Flectalon of comparable weight reduced the critical temperature to 13.8 degrees C: Flectalon is thus an efficient insulator. The risk of overheating was studied by monitoring swaddled babies, rectal temperatures at various ambient temperatures. Some forms of swaddling caused increases in rectal temperatures at "normal' hospital temperatures, implying risks from warmer environments and assessments of swaddling materials should, therefore, include medical evaluation of efficiency and safety. Flectalon merits assessment in other groups at risk from hypothermia. __________________ Located in Canada Last edited by Westwinds : 31st March 2006 at 04:33.
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31st March 2006, 07:14	#5 (permalink)
vid New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Surrey, UK Posts: 65	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet i use a flectalon undersuit some times - Northern Diver - if I need lots of extra warmth (i dive a neoprene dry suit) but generally I use polartec (4th element) long jons and top - their "arctic" is equivalent to about 70 gramme - which should be up to your needs, given your location hth vid
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31st March 2006, 07:40	#6 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,896	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Again, my main concern is what happens when the suit is flooded or very wet. Lots of things will work so long as the suit stays dry inside. Even fleece would be perfectly adequate for me if I were to stay dry. I have friends that just wear lightweight long underwear in their suits, and then they use Argon if it gets cooler. Perhaps they are happy for all of the times that this combination works. However, sooner or later, they are going to have one long miserable decompression hang with a flooded suit. That is specifically what I do not want to happen for myself, and that is why I have always used some kind of Thinslate based thermals in the past. Don't get me wrong, my suit works great. However, wrist and neck seals tear. I want to be prepared for a flood where I would need to do a long deco when the water is at the colder end of my dive water temperature spectrum, about the mid-60F range. I am looking for the least bulky thermals that work well when flooded. In a perfect world, this would be 50 gram thinsulate with a light fleece stretch kind of design. Since I can't find this, I am looking for the next best thing. So, how does the 100 gram Flectalon handle flooding compared to 100 gram Thinsulate? Is it in fact less bulky, and allows the diver to wear less lead? __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

31st March 2006, 10:41	#7 (permalink)
*sadave* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 976	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Have never dived a Thinsulate, but I've had my Northern Diver Flectalon 200 for over 5 years now. Its still as warm as the day I bought it. Washing? Easy, just chuck it in the washing machine, I've done this every few months for as long as I've owned it, never a problem!!! (Try that with a thinsulate!!!). Warm when flooded? Toasty. I flooded (and I mean, COMPLETELY!!!) flooded my old neo suit, the zip busted, I still had 45mins of deco to do, in 11deg C water, and yeah, I was cold at the end of it, but not hypothermic like you would expect to be... To compare, I flooded that same suit (replaced the zip on it twice, then ended up ebaying the POS...) wearing Polyprop thermals, with 300 wt polartec pants and top, in 15deg water, with only 15mins deco, and was shivering uncontrollably by the end of it... I couldn't possibly be happier with my flectalon! Have dived it under my tri-lam down to 7deg C water quite comfortably... Not sure about the pricing over there, but here, they are a bit under half the price of the equivalent DUI undergarment!!! And sooo much better! /edit: read the rest of your post... I find it a LOT less bulky than my old polartec undergarments, and dropped a coupla kg's of lead too... __________________ Wave!
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31st March 2006, 15:47	#8 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,896	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Okay, Sadave. Now, we are starting to get somewhere here. Do you know if one can purchase the suit without getting that mesh over the wrist/forearm area (having the regular fabric go all the way to the cuff)? __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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1st April 2006, 00:03	#9 (permalink)
*sadave* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brisbane, Queensland Posts: 976	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Honestly no idea, sorry... I know they don't do custom sizing (15 sizes should cover it!), so not sure if they will do any mods etc... Having said that, what's wrong with the mesh on the wrist? I've never had an issue with it? __________________ Wave!
(Online)

1st April 2006, 03:23	#10 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,896	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet I phoned them today. They say that they will do custom, and that they will eliminate the mesh on the wrists . . . for a fee (fair enough as long as they will do it ). I will be following up. Still undecided about going with this or a Diving Concepts 100 gram stretch Thinsulate suit. Decisions, decisions! __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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