Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet

Mdemon · 20th April 2006, 10:16

Your inner suits seem expensive over there! Ours are about £120 GBP for the top-of-the-range stuff.

I use Otter inner suits - they are neck and neck with Weezles for the top spot over here (UK). Never had any issue with valve blockage - issues I have seen other people have tended to result in air being trapped in the legs and nothing to do with the valve itself - could this be a factor with you?

Just a thought, but if you are worried about flooding then there is another option. Take a spare DS and inner suit with you. When you get to your shallow stop you can then get out, change and get back in to do the deco. It's a technique that has been used in the past - but is obviously for emergencies only... I'd say hypothermia is a bigger risk than DCS in this instance. And if you are hypothermic, your circulation will be less good, so you'd be more likely to get DCS (IMVHAUO) anyway...

Nemo1957 · 21st April 2006, 10:58

We have used Thisulate in some of our products over the years however it is not as warm as Primaloft oz. for oz. To make proper comparisons you need to know the CLO (a unit of thermal resistance in a garment, like a R value for insulation in your house). As an example the Dive Rite Primaloft suit has a CLO that is 10% higher than a Weezle Extreme + but it uses 5 oz. of Primaloft where Weezle uses 9 oz. of their insulator.

I'm not sure where you found a spec for Thinsulate retains heat when wet, I havent seen that before and it hasnt been our experiance. Another down side to Thisulate is that it is very hydrophilic and depending one which style is used can absorb as much as 1300% its weight when submerged. Primaloft on the other hand is Hydrophobic and carries only 20% its wgt of water.

Philippe GERIN · 21st April 2006, 15:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Nemo1957)

As an example the Dive Rite Primaloft suit has a CLO that is 10% higher than a Weezle Extreme + but it uses 5 oz. of Primaloft where Weezle uses 9 oz. of their insulator.

Does that mean that DR's primaloft is theoretically 10% warmer than a Weezle Extreme+ but roughly 1/2 the weight and thickness so you need less loft then less air in the suit therefore less weight?
Best
Philippe

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 21st April 2006, 17:12

At this point, I have elected to go with "the Devil I know." I ordered the Bare T-100. I will take it to a tailor after it arrives in the hope that I can have the extra bulk cut away to at least a half custom fit.

Some day, when I am rich, I will buy one of each, and test them out for a real comparison. Perhaps those of you in the manufacturer's camp that have something to tout will donate one to me now so that you can find out just where your claims stand. Any takers?

aquaxel · 21st April 2006, 21:19

custom made? : http://www.santi.com.pl/en/BZ400.php

anyone wearing silver underwear? : http://fiddleheadpa.safeshopper.com/1/104.htm?410

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 21st April 2006, 22:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel)

custom made? : http://www.santi.com.pl/en/BZ400.php

Sure, now you get around to chiming in.

Actually, they make a 40 gram that might be perfect for what I do. I sent them email to check into it. http://www.santi.com.pl/en/neoprencs40.php

aquaxel · 22nd April 2006, 07:57

mayb this is not the right place to speak about but addressing the theme underwear, is there any commercial divers out there who can answer this? :

if conducting surface oxygen decompression (chamber deco) where there is only 5min. to surface, undress and get to -40ft in chamber what is the underwear to use considering that no nylons or statics are allowed?

aquaxel · 22nd April 2006, 09:59

from the DMAC (http://www.dmac-diving.org/guidance/) document (DMCA 08) page 17 of 25 (http://www.dmac-diving.org/guidance/DMAC08.pdf) following excerpt:

" Some discussion of these figures ensued and their implication in terms of material thicknesses required. Both Dr Thornton and Dr Hayes suggested that a figure of 4 Clo might be more realistic for materials subjected to pressure, whereas Dr Webb supported a value of l to 2 Clo. Surg. Cdr Golden referred to new types of insulating materials such as "Flectalon" which was composed of aluminium strands in mesh form and provided radiant as well as conductive and convective insulation. Its great advantage was that it withstood compression. "

RAL · 22nd April 2006, 12:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel)

mayb this is not the right place to speak about but addressing the theme underwear, is there any commercial divers out there who can answer this? :

if conducting surface oxygen decompression (chamber deco) where there is only 5min. to surface, undress and get to -40ft in chamber what is the underwear to use considering that no nylons or statics are allowed?

In the GOM most guys use sweats, long johns or both. In the summer its not a problem "T" shirts & shorts. In the past I have seen the old Woolybears used in very cold weather.
The tables in use now go to 50' for 10 min after an air dive, 15 min after a gas dive followed by a 10 min slide on O2 to 40' where the bulk of the deco is completed.

RAL

Nemo1957 · 22nd April 2006, 23:29

Yes and maybe.

It is measurably 10% warmer, and 1/2 the weight. However when retaining heat with fabric or batting trapped air is everything. The more trapped / dead air space the more resistance to thermal conductivity. This is a undeniable law of Physics. Primaloft is able to trap more air in less space becuse it uses "ultra" micro denier fiber to make the bat. The fiber is also treated with silicon during the manufaturing process to prevent the fiber from absorbing water helping it retain more of its warmth when wet and drying faster. Since Albany International (the maker of Primaloft) holds a patent on fiber bat construction with this small or smaller fiber they have a lock on the "warnest" insulator available.

In practice when I switched from a Thinsulate + fleece lined unergarment I dropped 6 pounds of lead. Now with a set of dbls that are neutral when empty, SS plate, one steel 45 deco, canister light etc. I dont use any lead in fresh water, 6 lbs in salt.

Nemo

Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN)

Does that mean that DR's primaloft is theoretically 10% warmer than a Weezle Extreme+ but roughly 1/2 the weight and thickness so you need less loft then less air in the suit therefore less weight?
Best
Philippe

20th April 2006, 10:16	#41 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,927	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Your inner suits seem expensive over there! Ours are about £120 GBP for the top-of-the-range stuff. I use Otter inner suits - they are neck and neck with Weezles for the top spot over here (UK). Never had any issue with valve blockage - issues I have seen other people have tended to result in air being trapped in the legs and nothing to do with the valve itself - could this be a factor with you? Just a thought, but if you are worried about flooding then there is another option. Take a spare DS and inner suit with you. When you get to your shallow stop you can then get out, change and get back in to do the deco. It's a technique that has been used in the past - but is obviously for emergencies only... I'd say hypothermia is a bigger risk than DCS in this instance. And if you are hypothermic, your circulation will be less good, so you'd be more likely to get DCS (IMVHAUO) anyway... __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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21st April 2006, 10:58	#42 (permalink)
Nemo1957 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York Posts: 84	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet We have used Thisulate in some of our products over the years however it is not as warm as Primaloft oz. for oz. To make proper comparisons you need to know the CLO (a unit of thermal resistance in a garment, like a R value for insulation in your house). As an example the Dive Rite Primaloft suit has a CLO that is 10% higher than a Weezle Extreme + but it uses 5 oz. of Primaloft where Weezle uses 9 oz. of their insulator. I'm not sure where you found a spec for Thinsulate retains heat when wet, I havent seen that before and it hasnt been our experiance. Another down side to Thisulate is that it is very hydrophilic and depending one which style is used can absorb as much as 1300% its weight when submerged. Primaloft on the other hand is Hydrophobic and carries only 20% its wgt of water.
(Offline)

21st April 2006, 15:03	#43 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 636	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Quote: (Originally Posted by Nemo1957) As an example the Dive Rite Primaloft suit has a CLO that is 10% higher than a Weezle Extreme + but it uses 5 oz. of Primaloft where Weezle uses 9 oz. of their insulator. Does that mean that DR's primaloft is theoretically 10% warmer than a Weezle Extreme+ but roughly 1/2 the weight and thickness so you need less loft then less air in the suit therefore less weight? Best Philippe
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21st April 2006, 17:12	#44 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet At this point, I have elected to go with "the Devil I know." I ordered the Bare T-100. I will take it to a tailor after it arrives in the hope that I can have the extra bulk cut away to at least a half custom fit. Some day, when I am rich, I will buy one of each, and test them out for a real comparison. Perhaps those of you in the manufacturer's camp that have something to tout will donate one to me now so that you can find out just where your claims stand. Any takers? __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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21st April 2006, 21:19	#45 (permalink)
aquaxel aquanaut Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: cyprus Posts: 530	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet custom made? : http://www.santi.com.pl/en/BZ400.php anyone wearing silver underwear? : http://fiddleheadpa.safeshopper.com/1/104.htm?410 __________________ rgds aquaxel www.aquatec-innerspace.com
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21st April 2006, 22:45	#46 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel) custom made? : http://www.santi.com.pl/en/BZ400.php Sure, now you get around to chiming in. Actually, they make a 40 gram that might be perfect for what I do. I sent them email to check into it. http://www.santi.com.pl/en/neoprencs40.php __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

22nd April 2006, 07:57	#47 (permalink)
aquaxel aquanaut Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: cyprus Posts: 530	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet mayb this is not the right place to speak about but addressing the theme underwear, is there any commercial divers out there who can answer this? : if conducting surface oxygen decompression (chamber deco) where there is only 5min. to surface, undress and get to -40ft in chamber what is the underwear to use considering that no nylons or statics are allowed? __________________ rgds aquaxel www.aquatec-innerspace.com
(Offline)

22nd April 2006, 09:59	#48 (permalink)
aquaxel aquanaut Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: cyprus Posts: 530	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet from the DMAC (http://www.dmac-diving.org/guidance/) document (DMCA 08) page 17 of 25 (http://www.dmac-diving.org/guidance/DMAC08.pdf) following excerpt: " Some discussion of these figures ensued and their implication in terms of material thicknesses required. Both Dr Thornton and Dr Hayes suggested that a figure of 4 Clo might be more realistic for materials subjected to pressure, whereas Dr Webb supported a value of l to 2 Clo. Surg. Cdr Golden referred to new types of insulating materials such as "Flectalon" which was composed of aluminium strands in mesh form and provided radiant as well as conductive and convective insulation. Its great advantage was that it withstood compression. " __________________ rgds aquaxel www.aquatec-innerspace.com
(Offline)

22nd April 2006, 12:56	#49 (permalink)
RAL Longbottom Time Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: North Florida Posts: 390	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Quote: (Originally Posted by aquaxel) mayb this is not the right place to speak about but addressing the theme underwear, is there any commercial divers out there who can answer this? : if conducting surface oxygen decompression (chamber deco) where there is only 5min. to surface, undress and get to -40ft in chamber what is the underwear to use considering that no nylons or statics are allowed? In the GOM most guys use sweats, long johns or both. In the summer its not a problem "T" shirts & shorts. In the past I have seen the old Woolybears used in very cold weather. The tables in use now go to 50' for 10 min after an air dive, 15 min after a gas dive followed by a 10 min slide on O2 to 40' where the bulk of the deco is completed. RAL
(Offline)

22nd April 2006, 23:29	#50 (permalink)
Nemo1957 New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: New York Posts: 84	Re: Flectalon versus Thinsulate When Wet Yes and maybe. It is measurably 10% warmer, and 1/2 the weight. However when retaining heat with fabric or batting trapped air is everything. The more trapped / dead air space the more resistance to thermal conductivity. This is a undeniable law of Physics. Primaloft is able to trap more air in less space becuse it uses "ultra" micro denier fiber to make the bat. The fiber is also treated with silicon during the manufaturing process to prevent the fiber from absorbing water helping it retain more of its warmth when wet and drying faster. Since Albany International (the maker of Primaloft) holds a patent on fiber bat construction with this small or smaller fiber they have a lock on the "warnest" insulator available. In practice when I switched from a Thinsulate + fleece lined unergarment I dropped 6 pounds of lead. Now with a set of dbls that are neutral when empty, SS plate, one steel 45 deco, canister light etc. I dont use any lead in fresh water, 6 lbs in salt. Nemo Quote: (Originally Posted by Philippe GERIN) Does that mean that DR's primaloft is theoretically 10% warmer than a Weezle Extreme+ but roughly 1/2 the weight and thickness so you need less loft then less air in the suit therefore less weight? Best Philippe
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