Rebreather Cross Training

Genesis · 27th February 2006, 20:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

That pretty much was the content of a recent e-mail of Leon's to the nw list.
That he doesn't approve of discounting done by some of the instructors.
He believes he has build a top notch rebreather that is worth the money and
deserves top notch instruction which then is also worth the money.

IMHO Leon is trying to reach beyond where he (legally) can.

Having pride in your gear is not only good, its wonderful.

However, to the extent that you attempt to "reach" beyond your equipment and tie your sale to another sale by either your organization or an affiliate, either in forcing that second sale or in setting the price on which it is offered, you've got a major potential problem - at least in the United States.

Note that its not legal to say that you must buy your new vehicle service from <X> (at prices you like) as a carmaker in order to keep the warranty in force - or as a condition of the sale of the car in the first place......

onetime · 27th February 2006, 20:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

In regards to crossovers discussed here, I agree with jdz.
Personally I rather pay for a good instructor and learn something than get
a discount and and don't.

I think you miss the point of the price discussion. Nowhere did anyone say they were looking to cut the "quality" of the instructor just that it's a pretty basic fact that, not withstanding students who require remedial training, it does not take as much effort or time to teach a currently proficient CCR diver to dive another unit vs the time it takes to teach a complete newbie to dive a specific CCR.

Of course if people are willing to pay for full courses without question who am I to argue. I mean some people actually get all the crap done to their cars that the dealership recommends. Of course they pay $75 an hour for someone to check that they have windshield wiper fluid but at least they know that it'll be there when that bug splats. Personally I find it hard to believe that I'm going to learn significantly more about rebreather theory by doing a course on an Optima or Meg than I already have amassed through my KISS course and learned by reading all other available material I've gotten my hands on.

Now, that being said, I would wager that you could learn a heck of a lot more from Leon being your instructor than the "typical" trainer as he has far more intimate knowledge of the unit, is more aware of modifications that others have made, and knows exactly how each piece is made/functions.

Far be it from me to tell people how they should or shouldn't do things. I'm just saying what makes sense to me. As a potential customer, if someone has an answer to the points I raise and they justify why the price should be the same as a "full" course I'll spend the money (e.g. Leon's intimate knowledge of the unit and how it was designed) If they can't I'll continue shopping.

**JPJones** · 28th February 2006, 01:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by onetime)

I think you miss the point of the price discussion. Nowhere did anyone say they were looking to cut the "quality" of the instructor just that it's a pretty basic fact that, not withstanding students who require remedial training, it does not take as much effort or time to teach a currently proficient CCR diver to dive another unit vs the time it takes to teach a complete newbie to dive a specific CCR.

Of course if people are willing to pay for full courses without question who am I to argue. I mean some people actually get all the crap done to their cars that the dealership recommends. Of course they pay $75 an hour for someone to check that they have windshield wiper fluid but at least they know that it'll be there when that bug splats. Personally I find it hard to believe that I'm going to learn significantly more about rebreather theory by doing a course on an Optima or Meg than I already have amassed through my KISS course and learned by reading all other available material I've gotten my hands on.

Now, that being said, I would wager that you could learn a heck of a lot more from Leon being your instructor than the "typical" trainer as he has far more intimate knowledge of the unit, is more aware of modifications that others have made, and knows exactly how each piece is made/functions.

Far be it from me to tell people how they should or shouldn't do things. I'm just saying what makes sense to me. As a potential customer, if someone has an answer to the points I raise and they justify why the price should be the same as a "full" course I'll spend the money (e.g. Leon's intimate knowledge of the unit and how it was designed) If they can't I'll continue shopping.

I agree that if you are taking a crossover from basic Kiss to basic Optima it should only be half and that is what I charge (It takes half the time). But if you have a CCR Trimix Card not a unit spacific card then I have to do two dives at that level and as much time total as a basic course so I have to cover my time and exspence which is the same or a little more.

IANTD does not teach unit specific trimix classes any more. In the long run this is cheeper because you don't have to take another trimix course on the new unit.

27th February 2006, 20:36	#31 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: Rebreather Cross Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) That pretty much was the content of a recent e-mail of Leon's to the nw list. That he doesn't approve of discounting done by some of the instructors. He believes he has build a top notch rebreather that is worth the money and deserves top notch instruction which then is also worth the money. IMHO Leon is trying to reach beyond where he (legally) can. Having pride in your gear is not only good, its wonderful. However, to the extent that you attempt to "reach" beyond your equipment and tie your sale to another sale by either your organization or an affiliate, either in forcing that second sale or in setting the price on which it is offered, you've got a major potential problem - at least in the United States. Note that its not legal to say that you must buy your new vehicle service from <X> (at prices you like) as a carmaker in order to keep the warranty in force - or as a condition of the sale of the car in the first place...... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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27th February 2006, 20:53	#32 (permalink)
onetime Classic KISSer #138 Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: US, NJ Posts: 673	Re: Rebreather Cross Training Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) In regards to crossovers discussed here, I agree with jdz. Personally I rather pay for a good instructor and learn something than get a discount and and don't. I think you miss the point of the price discussion. Nowhere did anyone say they were looking to cut the "quality" of the instructor just that it's a pretty basic fact that, not withstanding students who require remedial training, it does not take as much effort or time to teach a currently proficient CCR diver to dive another unit vs the time it takes to teach a complete newbie to dive a specific CCR. Of course if people are willing to pay for full courses without question who am I to argue. I mean some people actually get all the crap done to their cars that the dealership recommends. Of course they pay $75 an hour for someone to check that they have windshield wiper fluid but at least they know that it'll be there when that bug splats. Personally I find it hard to believe that I'm going to learn significantly more about rebreather theory by doing a course on an Optima or Meg than I already have amassed through my KISS course and learned by reading all other available material I've gotten my hands on. Now, that being said, I would wager that you could learn a heck of a lot more from Leon being your instructor than the "typical" trainer as he has far more intimate knowledge of the unit, is more aware of modifications that others have made, and knows exactly how each piece is made/functions. Far be it from me to tell people how they should or shouldn't do things. I'm just saying what makes sense to me. As a potential customer, if someone has an answer to the points I raise and they justify why the price should be the same as a "full" course I'll spend the money (e.g. Leon's intimate knowledge of the unit and how it was designed) If they can't I'll continue shopping.
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28th February 2006, 01:33	#33 (permalink)
JPJones O2ptima Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Titan Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 367	Re: Rebreather Cross Training Quote: (Originally Posted by onetime) I think you miss the point of the price discussion. Nowhere did anyone say they were looking to cut the "quality" of the instructor just that it's a pretty basic fact that, not withstanding students who require remedial training, it does not take as much effort or time to teach a currently proficient CCR diver to dive another unit vs the time it takes to teach a complete newbie to dive a specific CCR. Of course if people are willing to pay for full courses without question who am I to argue. I mean some people actually get all the crap done to their cars that the dealership recommends. Of course they pay $75 an hour for someone to check that they have windshield wiper fluid but at least they know that it'll be there when that bug splats. Personally I find it hard to believe that I'm going to learn significantly more about rebreather theory by doing a course on an Optima or Meg than I already have amassed through my KISS course and learned by reading all other available material I've gotten my hands on. Now, that being said, I would wager that you could learn a heck of a lot more from Leon being your instructor than the "typical" trainer as he has far more intimate knowledge of the unit, is more aware of modifications that others have made, and knows exactly how each piece is made/functions. Far be it from me to tell people how they should or shouldn't do things. I'm just saying what makes sense to me. As a potential customer, if someone has an answer to the points I raise and they justify why the price should be the same as a "full" course I'll spend the money (e.g. Leon's intimate knowledge of the unit and how it was designed) If they can't I'll continue shopping. I agree that if you are taking a crossover from basic Kiss to basic Optima it should only be half and that is what I charge (It takes half the time). But if you have a CCR Trimix Card not a unit spacific card then I have to do two dives at that level and as much time total as a basic course so I have to cover my time and exspence which is the same or a little more. IANTD does not teach unit specific trimix classes any more. In the long run this is cheeper because you don't have to take another trimix course on the new unit. __________________ NSS/CDS Training Chairman www.jpjscuba.com
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