Rebreather Cross Training

Drmike

Hey **** it you are both right - Im wrong. I fully agree that

every tom dick and harry run cross over courses and

ADDED: Im going to go away and boil my head for a while - see you on the other side.

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Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

onetime

Well, that's just not true. I know two Toms and three Harry's and none of them are even Rebreather instructors.


Fine, will it make you feel any better if I say "All the instructors that I've asked would do a cross over course at less than the price of a full course"?

Should I also add in the caveat that they're not teaching other courses at the time? Although that would be a slight lie as one of the instructors would have been teaching another course (on the same unit) and I would have been able to jump in during the critical parts rather than be part of the course from start to finish.

Simon Mitchell

Hello,

On the issue of the necessity for such courses (as opposed to their price), my view is that such training is absolutely essential. Indeed, there are some potentially deadly traps awaiting those who interpret the function and operation of a new unit in terms of their experience with a previous different device. Cross over training needs to be thorough and free of too many assumptions about prior knowledge. There will always be a temptation to take the "you know what you are doing, let's just go for a dive and have a beer" approach. This must be resisted at all costs.

I base this opinion on anecdote (obviously), but some of it is fairly powerful.

There is strong evidence suggesting that inadequate cross-over training has contributed to several rebreather accidents that I have investigated. For example, a CO2 scrubber was assembled incorrectly (but "correct" if interpreted in the context of the diver's previous unit) in an accident in which CO2 toxicity was almost certainly the cause.

As with all rebreather training, cross over "students" should select an instructor who has true experience-based expertise on the unit they are teaching. Ideally the instructor would have a good working knowledge of the unit the diver had previously used as well, so that important but perhaps subtle differences could be highlighted.

Simon M

Mike

Having done a couple of courses for different units now, it's my view that a cross over course is only really required if the user/ operational manual for the unit is substandard.

As I've said before, I believe it's the student who should be determining if they have recieved adequate instruction, not the instructor. Therefore a competant student (ie someone with experience and knowledge on CCRs) on a new unit should be able to go through an operational manual and get all the information required to dive that unit safely. And further, it is up to them to make the call, by betting their life on it, that they did understand everything. If not, then they should seek clarification, perhaps through a paid consultancy with an instructor.

The areas where there may be some value in seeking instruction (which can be from an instructor, or a peer) is in the poorly quantified procedures such as packing scrubbers, attaching heads/buckets, or connecting hoses. It is nice to see how tight each component is (assuming of course that the tolerences are the same between different examples of the same unit ), however, in most other examples of quality equipment, the manufacturor seems capable of supplying specifications such as torque figures which enables a user to not have to trust to 'feel', but actually quantifiably QA an assembly process.

To summarise then, cross over courses are only required because manufacturers either have poor operational manuals, or produce poor quality goods with excessive variance in tolerances, or both.

I'd vote for both.

Mike

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wedivebc

Well said Simon!

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Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

wizbang

I agree with Simon here except where the onus falls on "cross-over" courses.
I beleive all that was said also applies to regular courses.

Therefore it is much more do with the instructor or instructor to student relationship than whether it is a half course or a full course.

Good training is good training and should be dictatted by the knowledge understanding and attitude of the student. If the instructor, as the student progresses through the course, realises deficiencies in the students knowledge or attitude then the course gets longer and longer until it is a full course or the student is failed. (God forbid)

Train me, I want to learn, but give me credit where credit is due.

diverklondike

Well put!!!!

devo

I agree fully on the training, but I was actually referring to cross overs. I think it is a little silly to go through (and pay for) an entire course when there might be small proprietary (mechanical and operational) differences in units. I am all for paying an instructor for their time and going for a day or 2 of diving on the new unit and let them show me the differences (and tell me if I suck in the process!).

I noticed in the "Optima Codes" post the mention of the IANTD "Trimix CCR" card which (apparently) is non-specific. Something like this is what sparked my original question. If I want to broaden my experience on CCR by branching out with other units, I would need to look at it a lot closer (financially) if I have to start from scratch.

I think this might also be a major reason people are die-hards for their particular unit. They paid for the training and it is not cheap to venture elsewhere.

caveseeker7

IANTD offers both unit specific (the more popular ones, YBOD, Meg etc) as well as a 'blank' CCR Trimix (for units like Mike's 15.5). Personally I believe they are the way to go, as you don't have to do the same class over and over again just because you switch to from a yellow lid to red bags or black cowling. At that level divers should be able to push the damn buttons, if they don't, flunk 'em.

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Cheers
Stefan



"Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority,
and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media,
which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"

tdvanniekerk

There is considerably less effort involved if you teach a cross over to an experienced CCR diver. If your instructor is not willing to give you a discount then find another one.

TD van Niekerk
Inspiration Instructor - Norm Tmx