FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture.

divetheworld · 16th February 2006, 17:52

Ladies and Gents,

Just a quick note to all you lucky boys and girls with rebreathers.

I am not a manufacturer of rebreather parts, in my spare time I do a lot of modifying and building parts for my rebreathers and for those who are my friends.
Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from. People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others here on this board put themselves out to offer these enhancements at as little cost as possible. most of the time, we end up out of pocket by a small amount, other times we make enough for a few beers for Saturday night.
Engineers and tool makers charge an hourly rate for making parts, if we get it wrong we pay for the time and the scrap material, then have to make it all over again until it works. Perfectionists work this way. By the time you have a good example made, you could have bought a production model three or four times over.
Take my lung modification for example. I bought a fair selection of sample parts before I found clips that I would trust for this application. Then I had to sit down with a suitable craftsman (who I had to find because your local cobbler might screw it up) who could do the work with a warranty and insurance which would cover a damaged set of £276 lungs.
Once I have a gauge on the demand that may ensure, I prospectively buy in stock of parts I need so I dont keep you out of the water for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
Fuel and time not withstanding, I wont break even on this until I have done 5 sets of lungs. I dont expect a stampede, just enough to cover my expenses and a little bit extra to support this website.

The screw for the Inspiration DSV that John makes was made from a 1 metre length of 316L. He made a full set of them out of this bar because two or three people liked the idea, I doubt he has even broke even on this yet.
Johns prototyping has him significantly out of pocket as we speak on new and exciting items that will be vital safety advantages to a great many of you. Why? because of the thanks he gets when it all goes right.

The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration when people baulk at the cost of these little trinkets.

John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there.

We do this for the same reason clubs teach. not because it makes money, but because we love the sport and we want to share it with all those who we feel kindred to.

Please dont take the piss. Because I guarantee, we will go the same way Bob Howell did.

Quietly.

***EBT*** · 16th February 2006, 17:57

Agreed 100%. If we want a community of innovators, we should support the guys who put in the work.

R&D is always expensive, especially so at the low volume end of the market.

D-UNIT · 16th February 2006, 21:55

Totally agree.
most af the kit that everyone dives is mass produced by companies that are in business to make profit - and they do.
why happily pay thousands for a piece of kit that works but has floors or could be improved, but bitch and whine about the price of parts which fix these floors or improve the function. either buy the parts or dont but dont whine about the price.
stuff from people like john represents value for money - you get what you pay for nothing more nothing less, your not paying for adverts in dive mags or making someone else rich - if you divide the profit (if any) john makes by the hours of time he puts in, your getting a bargain - a skilled engineer and full machine shop for pennies an hour! I for one wouldnt work for that. john and everyone else like him are doing us a favour, and should be supported.

Genesis · 16th February 2006, 21:57

Agreed.

I've got sitting on my desk right now quotes for 5, 10 and 100 of the handset enclosures for my controller.

There is a VERY sizeable difference "per unit" between the 5 or 10 and 100 prices. VERY.

One-offs or anything that smells like a one-off is quite expensive to have made....... If you want to check it out yourself go over to emachineshop.com, download their software, design something, and then have it quote Q1 (you can do that right on the spot) If you still the price for that bit or piece you were going to buy is unreasonable let us know.

decoweenie · 17th February 2006, 00:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there.

That's absolutely unbelievable...

I have bought parts from John, and all of them are of highest quality. Turn-around time is also excellent.

Plus, the parts that John offers are parts that you can't easily buy elsewhere, and greatly improve the performance. No one has to have them, but if you need them, they are bargains IMHO.

What more does anyone want ?

John and Brent, keep your chins up, guys. We will always support you!

Drmike · 17th February 2006, 00:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

Ladies and Gents,

Just a quick note to all you lucky boys and girls with rebreathers.

I am not a manufacturer of rebreather parts, in my spare time I do a lot of modifying and building parts for my rebreathers and for those who are my friends.
Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from. People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others here on this board put themselves out to offer these enhancements at as little cost as possible. most of the time, we end up out of pocket by a small amount, other times we make enough for a few beers for Saturday night.
Engineers and tool makers charge an hourly rate for making parts, if we get it wrong we pay for the time and the scrap material, then have to make it all over again until it works. Perfectionists work this way. By the time you have a good example made, you could have bought a production model three or four times over.
Take my lung modification for example. I bought a fair selection of sample parts before I found clips that I would trust for this application. Then I had to sit down with a suitable craftsman (who I had to find because your local cobbler might screw it up) who could do the work with a warranty and insurance which would cover a damaged set of £276 lungs.
Once I have a gauge on the demand that may ensure, I prospectively buy in stock of parts I need so I dont keep you out of the water for any longer than is absolutely necessary.
Fuel and time not withstanding, I wont break even on this until I have done 5 sets of lungs. I dont expect a stampede, just enough to cover my expenses and a little bit extra to support this website.

The screw for the Inspiration DSV that John makes was made from a 1 metre length of 316L. He made a full set of them out of this bar because two or three people liked the idea, I doubt he has even broke even on this yet.
Johns prototyping has him significantly out of pocket as we speak on new and exciting items that will be vital safety advantages to a great many of you. Why? because of the thanks he gets when it all goes right.

The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration when people baulk at the cost of these little trinkets.

John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there.

We do this for the same reason clubs teach. not because it makes money, but because we love the sport and we want to share it with all those who we feel kindred to.

Please dont take the piss. Because I guarantee, we will go the same way Bob Howell did.

Quietly.

Hmm interesting concept .....maybe Ill call the local Ferrari dealer and abuse them because I want to buy one but think they are overpriced....

***caveseeker7*** · 17th February 2006, 05:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products.

I never quite understood people like that, self absorbed a$$holes without a clue.

Having met quite a few people over the years that have the skill and ingenuity to come up with good gear I can honestly say I have yet to see one that can justify it with riches. Most they have to show for is passion for the sport and their work, satisfaction when it turns out as planned and feedback is good.

If people can't afford such gear, the problem is usually their inability to generate money rather than outrageous prices.

***Beanie*** · 17th February 2006, 08:25

Yep totally agree When I was selling bits and bobs, I had someone complain that I had sent them my bracket and that it wasn't a G-Snap and they wanted a G-Snap. Mine never even mentioned G-Snap and is a completly different design

I also got ripped off my the person that made my bits too and then was copied

At least I got what I wanted at the price I wanted

**woody** · 17th February 2006, 08:33

I totally agree, and i am voting with my wallet. My lungs will be on there way to Brent after the weekend and they have dried out.

Keep up the good work and ignore the peasants that do not appreciate the hard work of the innovators.

R

Mike

divetheworld · 17th February 2006, 09:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie)

I also got ripped off my the person that made my bits too and then was copied

At least I got what I wanted at the price I wanted

Funny you should mention that, I wasnt going to make further comment but this one is amusing.

John recieved an enquiry once for a guy who wanted some parts made, unfortunately the part was one off my website!!!

Needles to say, John told them to go forth and fornicate.

LOL

16th February 2006, 17:52	#1 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,535	FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Ladies and Gents, Just a quick note to all you lucky boys and girls with rebreathers. I am not a manufacturer of rebreather parts, in my spare time I do a lot of modifying and building parts for my rebreathers and for those who are my friends. Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from. People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others here on this board put themselves out to offer these enhancements at as little cost as possible. most of the time, we end up out of pocket by a small amount, other times we make enough for a few beers for Saturday night. Engineers and tool makers charge an hourly rate for making parts, if we get it wrong we pay for the time and the scrap material, then have to make it all over again until it works. Perfectionists work this way. By the time you have a good example made, you could have bought a production model three or four times over. Take my lung modification for example. I bought a fair selection of sample parts before I found clips that I would trust for this application. Then I had to sit down with a suitable craftsman (who I had to find because your local cobbler might screw it up) who could do the work with a warranty and insurance which would cover a damaged set of £276 lungs. Once I have a gauge on the demand that may ensure, I prospectively buy in stock of parts I need so I dont keep you out of the water for any longer than is absolutely necessary. Fuel and time not withstanding, I wont break even on this until I have done 5 sets of lungs. I dont expect a stampede, just enough to cover my expenses and a little bit extra to support this website. The screw for the Inspiration DSV that John makes was made from a 1 metre length of 316L. He made a full set of them out of this bar because two or three people liked the idea, I doubt he has even broke even on this yet. Johns prototyping has him significantly out of pocket as we speak on new and exciting items that will be vital safety advantages to a great many of you. Why? because of the thanks he gets when it all goes right. The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration when people baulk at the cost of these little trinkets. John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there. We do this for the same reason clubs teach. not because it makes money, but because we love the sport and we want to share it with all those who we feel kindred to. Please dont take the piss. Because I guarantee, we will go the same way Bob Howell did. Quietly. __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 16th February 2006 at 18:24.
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16th February 2006, 17:57	#2 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,853	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Agreed 100%. If we want a community of innovators, we should support the guys who put in the work. R&D is always expensive, especially so at the low volume end of the market. __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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16th February 2006, 21:55	#3 (permalink)
D-UNIT New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Leeds Posts: 17	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Totally agree. most af the kit that everyone dives is mass produced by companies that are in business to make profit - and they do. why happily pay thousands for a piece of kit that works but has floors or could be improved, but bitch and whine about the price of parts which fix these floors or improve the function. either buy the parts or dont but dont whine about the price. stuff from people like john represents value for money - you get what you pay for nothing more nothing less, your not paying for adverts in dive mags or making someone else rich - if you divide the profit (if any) john makes by the hours of time he puts in, your getting a bargain - a skilled engineer and full machine shop for pennies an hour! I for one wouldnt work for that. john and everyone else like him are doing us a favour, and should be supported. __________________ D-UNIT
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16th February 2006, 21:57	#4 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Agreed. I've got sitting on my desk right now quotes for 5, 10 and 100 of the handset enclosures for my controller. There is a VERY sizeable difference "per unit" between the 5 or 10 and 100 prices. VERY. One-offs or anything that smells like a one-off is quite expensive to have made....... If you want to check it out yourself go over to emachineshop.com, download their software, design something, and then have it quote Q1 (you can do that right on the spot) If you still the price for that bit or piece you were going to buy is unreasonable let us know. __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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17th February 2006, 00:30	#5 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there. That's absolutely unbelievable... I have bought parts from John, and all of them are of highest quality. Turn-around time is also excellent. Plus, the parts that John offers are parts that you can't easily buy elsewhere, and greatly improve the performance. No one has to have them, but if you need them, they are bargains IMHO. What more does anyone want ? John and Brent, keep your chins up, guys. We will always support you! __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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17th February 2006, 00:53	#6 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) Ladies and Gents, Just a quick note to all you lucky boys and girls with rebreathers. I am not a manufacturer of rebreather parts, in my spare time I do a lot of modifying and building parts for my rebreathers and for those who are my friends. Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from. People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others here on this board put themselves out to offer these enhancements at as little cost as possible. most of the time, we end up out of pocket by a small amount, other times we make enough for a few beers for Saturday night. Engineers and tool makers charge an hourly rate for making parts, if we get it wrong we pay for the time and the scrap material, then have to make it all over again until it works. Perfectionists work this way. By the time you have a good example made, you could have bought a production model three or four times over. Take my lung modification for example. I bought a fair selection of sample parts before I found clips that I would trust for this application. Then I had to sit down with a suitable craftsman (who I had to find because your local cobbler might screw it up) who could do the work with a warranty and insurance which would cover a damaged set of £276 lungs. Once I have a gauge on the demand that may ensure, I prospectively buy in stock of parts I need so I dont keep you out of the water for any longer than is absolutely necessary. Fuel and time not withstanding, I wont break even on this until I have done 5 sets of lungs. I dont expect a stampede, just enough to cover my expenses and a little bit extra to support this website. The screw for the Inspiration DSV that John makes was made from a 1 metre length of 316L. He made a full set of them out of this bar because two or three people liked the idea, I doubt he has even broke even on this yet. Johns prototyping has him significantly out of pocket as we speak on new and exciting items that will be vital safety advantages to a great many of you. Why? because of the thanks he gets when it all goes right. The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration when people baulk at the cost of these little trinkets. John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. No-one from this board I assure you, but such people are out there. We do this for the same reason clubs teach. not because it makes money, but because we love the sport and we want to share it with all those who we feel kindred to. Please dont take the piss. Because I guarantee, we will go the same way Bob Howell did. Quietly. Hmm interesting concept .....maybe Ill call the local Ferrari dealer and abuse them because I want to buy one but think they are overpriced.... __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you
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17th February 2006, 05:22	#7 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,318	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) John recieved some personal and abusive emails this evening because of the price of one of his products. I never quite understood people like that, self absorbed a$$holes without a clue. Having met quite a few people over the years that have the skill and ingenuity to come up with good gear I can honestly say I have yet to see one that can justify it with riches. Most they have to show for is passion for the sport and their work, satisfaction when it turns out as planned and feedback is good. If people can't afford such gear, the problem is usually their inability to generate money rather than outrageous prices. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life!
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17th February 2006, 08:25	#8 (permalink)
*Beanie* Politeness officer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,157	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Yep totally agree When I was selling bits and bobs, I had someone complain that I had sent them my bracket and that it wasn't a G-Snap and they wanted a G-Snap. Mine never even mentioned G-Snap and is a completly different design I also got ripped off my the person that made my bits too and then was copied At least I got what I wanted at the price I wanted __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk www.divelife.co.uk
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17th February 2006, 08:33	#9 (permalink)
woody Mmmm Rubber!! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Join Date: May 2005 Location: Wiltshire UK Posts: 191	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. I totally agree, and i am voting with my wallet. My lungs will be on there way to Brent after the weekend and they have dried out. Keep up the good work and ignore the peasants that do not appreciate the hard work of the innovators. R Mike __________________ Not eloquent enough for a smart arse signature!
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17th February 2006, 09:00	#10 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,535	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by Beanie) I also got ripped off my the person that made my bits too and then was copied At least I got what I wanted at the price I wanted Funny you should mention that, I wasnt going to make further comment but this one is amusing. John recieved an enquiry once for a guy who wanted some parts made, unfortunately the part was one off my website!!! Needles to say, John told them to go forth and fornicate. LOL __________________ Self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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