FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture.

Ben Field · 17th February 2006, 09:29

Thats really not on... everyone involved in Rebreather knows the number are small and as such the prices for custom stuff are never going to be cheap, its something you except and live with, from time to time bargins come along (I thought Phi's travel frames seemed a reasonable price for example) but in general trick bits cost trick money....

Having said that even non-trick bits from big manufacturers cost money if they are of low demand, I just laid out for a bunch of GCS bits from AP and man did it pile up once I'd got enough bits to make something that would work!

Don't take this abuse to heart guys- we appreciate your efforts.

BEN

dive2dive2000 · 18th February 2006, 19:51

I have had the pleasurable experience

of reproducing parts. People can sometimes be real assholes. But for every

out there, there is always the one friend/customer who makes all the aggravation worth while

kiam · 18th February 2006, 20:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

..................Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from......... People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others ...................The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration .................

I applaud the effort of those of you who dream, draw, design and produce anything that makes my rebreather diving more fun! Interesting that people balk at the price that innovation costs. I remember John asking SK divers what was important to us for the SK stand. I stated what I wanted and once I saw the prototype, knew we'd been heard! Honestly, when I saw the price, my eyebrow raised, yet I knew that I had an option, continue to squat like a duck to "suit up" or pay the man! We all have the same option! I feel we, who do not create, yet use, should be appreciative of those who use and create! If not for them, our experience would be lessened, because of them, our experience is enhanced. To those who would complain to the inventors and modifiers, please, shut the #4*% up! If they quit doing their thing, all my equipment will be stock! (Climbing down from my soapdish!)

Genesis · 18th February 2006, 20:31

The simple solution if you don't like the price is to go make your own....

I do believe there's a point to kvetching about the price, in that feedback is important. However, the best feedback someone can get that their product is too expensive is when a competitor shows up with a lower tag......

cool_hardware52 · 18th February 2006, 21:36

What I specialize in is modest volume manufacturer of specialized goods. It's about applying the appropriate level of manufacturing technology.

My take on this entire subject somewhere in the middle. There will always be the myopic few, who for what reasons will slam your goods, and complain about the cost. It may be that they are jealous, stupid, ignorant of the real costs of development, or just didn't get any last night.

This folks concern me only as far as their misinformation may confuse others, and even here I worry little. Most of those truely interested will be able to look past the rantings of ill informed self important minority. I don't especially enjoy these folks, but it comes with the territory.

If you are going to introduce goods in to the general "stream of commerce" i.e. outside your immediate circle, you just have to put up with the fact some won't like the price, or color, or the size, etc. I just invite them jump in too, the water's warm

If your goods truely are worth the price asked, you'll know soon enough.

Tobin

narked at 90 · 19th February 2006, 02:05

Hi all i've tryed to stay out of this but since im part of it im in!thank you to all who have defrended us builders be it home or work shop,may be i have put across the wrong impresion of my self but this is who im am in front of the would,i dont do this as a job, may be my website, shows you some thing differant, but it's just me. i work 14hrs aday then i come home and i start this..........is it worth it.......... no .......me and a few others ,DAVE T, BRENT , PHI and far to many people try very hard to get the idaes we have work. be it diving or other persutes,but we work an unhealthy amount of time to try and make the stuff work.only today i meet some one(who i know) perading around the DSV upgraide screw that i make for a tener that he got his mate to make. great but i bet it cost more than i can make it for... and i only make £3 per screwMe, brent and silent have worked very hard and i have spent all the money i have to make a new device that i belive will make every rebreather safer,we not only put our lives on the line to test this shit because we belive it to be the best we can do, if you dont want it fine, but i really call the line at my family being insulted, you may quegen my inteligence but do NOT Bring my family name in to it.............................regards john routley

Mdemon · 19th February 2006, 17:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90)

.only today i meet some one(who i know) perading around the DSV upgraide screw that i make for a tener that he got his mate to make. great but i bet it cost more than i can make it for... and i only make £3 per screw .....if you dont want it fine, but i really call the line at my family being insulted, you may quegen my inteligence but do NOT Bring my family name in to it.............................regards john routley

Unbelievable. I'm so sorry you guys are getting abuse for doing what is really a favour to other Rebreather users. I bought a DSV screw, not because I needed it but because it was an easy way to support a mate. To find that someone you knew then copied the design to save a few quid is beyond belief...

I've had to turn down quotes in the past. Not because they were unreasonable, but because I didn't have the money. For someone in the same situation to turn around and be abusive is just not on.

I for one feel very lucky to have you guys to turn to when I get my latest idea which will revolutionise rebreather diving...

All the best,

John

(By the way, how's the BOV conversion coming?

)

pchanning · 19th February 2006, 18:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000)

I have had the pleasurable experience

of reproducing parts. People can sometimes be real assholes. But for every

out there, there is always the one friend/customer who makes all the aggravation worth while

Excellent Martin. Now, if you could please make lists of:
a) assholes,
b) good folk who make it all worth while.

That would be very useful

Thanks
paul

leadking · 20th February 2006, 12:54

You have it right. Individuals in non-manufacturing jobs have no idea what things cost. I have people call me all the time trying to buy molds so they can make weights like mine. I tell them send me $8000 for the mold, $20,000 for the die set and $400,000 for the die cast machine and the too can make a 2 lb weight.

Lee

jdz · 20th February 2006, 20:39

Having made a few Rebreather shells in my time and fussed about my mod dolphin ccr, vib HUDs, and the numerous other bits of prototype, I can assure you I've not made my fortune out of spare parts!! I build out of necessity and for fun.

The feedback comments are priceless and help make my growing (worldwide) community. Thanks guys!!

And was it someone that said "If you want to end up with a million dollars out of the diving industry, then start with two!!"

Cheers, JDZ

17th February 2006, 09:29	#11 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,570	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Thats really not on... everyone involved in Rebreather knows the number are small and as such the prices for custom stuff are never going to be cheap, its something you except and live with, from time to time bargins come along (I thought Phi's travel frames seemed a reasonable price for example) but in general trick bits cost trick money.... Having said that even non-trick bits from big manufacturers cost money if they are of low demand, I just laid out for a bunch of GCS bits from AP and man did it pile up once I'd got enough bits to make something that would work! Don't take this abuse to heart guys- we appreciate your efforts. BEN __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
(Offline)

18th February 2006, 19:51	#12 (permalink)
dive2dive2000 PRISM DIVER & LUVIN IT! Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 788	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. I have had the pleasurable experience of reproducing parts. People can sometimes be real assholes. But for every out there, there is always the one friend/customer who makes all the aggravation worth while __________________ Safe Diving, Martin "but what's the fun of getting what you need, instead of what you want?"
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18th February 2006, 20:13	#13 (permalink)
kiam student diver Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 91	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) ..................Occasionally a modification gets made that a great many more could benefit from......... People like myself, Phi, John Routley and a few others ...................The point is, low volume costs a lot of time and money, and just sometimes, we would appreciate it if this was taken into consideration ................. I applaud the effort of those of you who dream, draw, design and produce anything that makes my rebreather diving more fun! Interesting that people balk at the price that innovation costs. I remember John asking SK divers what was important to us for the SK stand. I stated what I wanted and once I saw the prototype, knew we'd been heard! Honestly, when I saw the price, my eyebrow raised, yet I knew that I had an option, continue to squat like a duck to "suit up" or pay the man! We all have the same option! I feel we, who do not create, yet use, should be appreciative of those who use and create! If not for them, our experience would be lessened, because of them, our experience is enhanced. To those who would complain to the inventors and modifiers, please, shut the #4*% up! If they quit doing their thing, all my equipment will be stock! (Climbing down from my soapdish!)
(Offline)

18th February 2006, 20:31	#14 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. The simple solution if you don't like the price is to go make your own.... I do believe there's a point to kvetching about the price, in that feedback is important. However, the best feedback someone can get that their product is too expensive is when a competitor shows up with a lower tag...... __________________ "A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American." http://www.denninger.net http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket
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18th February 2006, 21:36	#15 (permalink)
cool_hardware52 RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: SoCal USA Posts: 375	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. What I specialize in is modest volume manufacturer of specialized goods. It's about applying the appropriate level of manufacturing technology. My take on this entire subject somewhere in the middle. There will always be the myopic few, who for what reasons will slam your goods, and complain about the cost. It may be that they are jealous, stupid, ignorant of the real costs of development, or just didn't get any last night. This folks concern me only as far as their misinformation may confuse others, and even here I worry little. Most of those truely interested will be able to look past the rantings of ill informed self important minority. I don't especially enjoy these folks, but it comes with the territory. If you are going to introduce goods in to the general "stream of commerce" i.e. outside your immediate circle, you just have to put up with the fact some won't like the price, or color, or the size, etc. I just invite them jump in too, the water's warm If your goods truely are worth the price asked, you'll know soon enough. Tobin __________________ www.deepseasupply.com
(Online)

19th February 2006, 02:05	#16 (permalink)
narked at 90 In my own little world Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: middlands uk Posts: 1,008	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Hi all i've tryed to stay out of this but since im part of it im in!thank you to all who have defrended us builders be it home or work shop,may be i have put across the wrong impresion of my self but this is who im am in front of the would,i dont do this as a job, may be my website, shows you some thing differant, but it's just me. i work 14hrs aday then i come home and i start this..........is it worth it.......... no .......me and a few others ,DAVE T, BRENT , PHI and far to many people try very hard to get the idaes we have work. be it diving or other persutes,but we work an unhealthy amount of time to try and make the stuff work.only today i meet some one(who i know) perading around the DSV upgraide screw that i make for a tener that he got his mate to make. great but i bet it cost more than i can make it for... and i only make £3 per screwMe, brent and silent have worked very hard and i have spent all the money i have to make a new device that i belive will make every rebreather safer,we not only put our lives on the line to test this shit because we belive it to be the best we can do, if you dont want it fine, but i really call the line at my family being insulted, you may quegen my inteligence but do NOT Bring my family name in to it.............................regards john routley __________________ CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *WWW.GRPSERVICES.COM* Last edited by narked at 90 : 19th February 2006 at 02:07. Reason: im craptg
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19th February 2006, 17:36	#17 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,904	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by narked at 90) .only today i meet some one(who i know) perading around the DSV upgraide screw that i make for a tener that he got his mate to make. great but i bet it cost more than i can make it for... and i only make £3 per screw .....if you dont want it fine, but i really call the line at my family being insulted, you may quegen my inteligence but do NOT Bring my family name in to it.............................regards john routley Unbelievable. I'm so sorry you guys are getting abuse for doing what is really a favour to other Rebreather users. I bought a DSV screw, not because I needed it but because it was an easy way to support a mate. To find that someone you knew then copied the design to save a few quid is beyond belief... I've had to turn down quotes in the past. Not because they were unreasonable, but because I didn't have the money. For someone in the same situation to turn around and be abusive is just not on. I for one feel very lucky to have you guys to turn to when I get my latest idea which will revolutionise rebreather diving... All the best, John (By the way, how's the BOV conversion coming? ) __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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19th February 2006, 18:36	#18 (permalink)
pchanning PFO free :) Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: fixed! Posts: 454	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Quote: (Originally Posted by dive2dive2000) I have had the pleasurable experience of reproducing parts. People can sometimes be real assholes. But for every out there, there is always the one friend/customer who makes all the aggravation worth while Excellent Martin. Now, if you could please make lists of: a) assholes, b) good folk who make it all worth while. That would be very useful Thanks paul __________________ Cheers Paul The key to enlightenment... is survival.
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20th February 2006, 12:54	#19 (permalink)
leadking New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 56	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. You have it right. Individuals in non-manufacturing jobs have no idea what things cost. I have people call me all the time trying to buy molds so they can make weights like mine. I tell them send me $8000 for the mold, $20,000 for the die set and $400,000 for the die cast machine and the too can make a 2 lb weight. Lee
(Offline)

20th February 2006, 20:39	#20 (permalink)
jdz Prism Cave Diver Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 217	Re: FYI, Prototype and small scale manufacture. Having made a few Rebreather shells in my time and fussed about my mod dolphin ccr, vib HUDs, and the numerous other bits of prototype, I can assure you I've not made my fortune out of spare parts!! I build out of necessity and for fun. The feedback comments are priceless and help make my growing (worldwide) community. Thanks guys!! And was it someone that said "If you want to end up with a million dollars out of the diving industry, then start with two!!" Cheers, JDZ
(Offline)

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