True and Percieved WOB

Drmike · 30th March 2005, 08:41

An old immersed article I just re-discovered after putting it up on TDS. Thought Id share it here also.

Quite interesting where it talks about perceived WOB and actual WOB (not the same allegedly)

I especially found the last paragraph interesting.

http://www.immersed.com/Articles/PDFs/kellon.pdf

For those following the TDS thread - I wonder is it possible to ban someone BEFORE they join??

dteubner · 30th March 2005, 10:08

Really interesting article Mike, thanks for posting it. My take on it would be that it makes some assertions which aren't referenced and may not be true.

For example the article says that "Negative lung loading has been shown to create more hypoventilation and fatigue.than positive lung loading, which creates fatigue only. The rule is, positive lung loading is better than negative lung loading, but low hydrostatic lung loading and the reduction of lung loading variances are best of all"

In a very quick and dirty look I could only find one reference in the medical literature that addresses the issue, from 1979 in Undersea Biomedical Reserach. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...st_uids=524528

The authours could not demonstrate any significant effect of static lung loadings from -20 to +20 cm of water on a range of ventilatory parameters at submaximal and maximal exertion.

There is some (largely anecdotal) evidnece that it is exhale resistance/work that contributes to rapid/shallow/ineffective respiration in divers suffering from CO2 toxicity. Exhale resistance is higher with the counterlung deeper than the chest.

So where does that leave us? Dunno.

Thanks again for posting it here, I was going to reply on TDS but then I thought - best let it through to the keeper

Dave T

decoweenie · 30th March 2005, 11:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

For those following the TDS thread - I wonder is it possible to ban someone BEFORE they join??

I second that !

***caveseeker7*** · 30th March 2005, 17:44

Mike, thanks for posting the link here, I was wondering what they were refering to. But the TDS thread is a bit ... exhausting, for the lack of a better word, so I figured, later, maybe later.

Can't believe it, but I had already downloaded Kellon's article ... .
Thanks for the response, Dave.

Stuart and I discussed the issue of banning briefly. It really should be his final decision as it is his website, but I'm sure he won't dick around. That rug is gonna be pulled so fast it's gonna make his head spin. 86ing someone before he gets to the door ... well ya'll can send Stuart a PM suggesting it. After the last tyrades at TDS I certainly won't object.

Nad · 30th March 2005, 21:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

Mike, thanks for posting the link here, I was wondering what they were refering to. But the TDS thread is a bit ... exhausting, for the lack of a better word, so I figured, later, maybe later.

Can't believe it, but I had already downloaded Kellon's article ... .
Thanks for the response, Dave.

Stuart and I discussed the issue of banning briefly. It really should be his final decision as it is his website, but I'm sure he won't dick around. That rug is gonna be pulled so fast it's gonna make his head spin. 86ing someone before he gets to the door ... well ya'll can send Stuart a PM suggesting it. After the last tyrades at TDS I certainly won't object.

Maybe I missed something.

Why to ban someone on from TDS before he join here?

Nad

dteubner · 30th March 2005, 22:30

There is an individual who has started posting on TDS after being banned from DiveOz some time ago see: http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/sh...4&page=1&pp=30

It's probably a bit unfair to ban someone before they've even joined but it's fair to say that Stefan's "exhausting" describes the DiveOz expereince quite nicely. DiveOz is certainly much less irritating without him but it just might be that, like the grain of sand that irritates the oyster to form the pearl (note - need vomiting smilie), his unique style does bring out some interesting points, mostly from other people.

Dave T

**Steve** · 31st March 2005, 08:43

Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog

dteubner · 31st March 2005, 08:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog

Five time smarter than you, mate.

Crazyduck · 31st March 2005, 15:49

Great Article!

Does anyone know if Jack Kellon is involved with the industry any more?

The article was marked something like 1998 while he was at Cochran here in Dallas. Damn- just down the street!

I was curious if he moved on or does anyone know of his where abouts? If it’s in Dallas I would gladly like to meet him.

Thanks, Andrew

**trob09** · 31st March 2005, 16:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog

If only fifi would do the posting...

30th March 2005, 08:41	#1 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,161	True and Percieved WOB An old immersed article I just re-discovered after putting it up on TDS. Thought Id share it here also. Quite interesting where it talks about perceived WOB and actual WOB (not the same allegedly) I especially found the last paragraph interesting. http://www.immersed.com/Articles/PDFs/kellon.pdf For those following the TDS thread - I wonder is it possible to ban someone BEFORE they join??
(Offline)

30th March 2005, 10:08	#2 (permalink)
dteubner Pedant Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 216	Really interesting article Mike, thanks for posting it. My take on it would be that it makes some assertions which aren't referenced and may not be true. For example the article says that "Negative lung loading has been shown to create more hypoventilation and fatigue.than positive lung loading, which creates fatigue only. The rule is, positive lung loading is better than negative lung loading, but low hydrostatic lung loading and the reduction of lung loading variances are best of all" In a very quick and dirty look I could only find one reference in the medical literature that addresses the issue, from 1979 in Undersea Biomedical Reserach. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...st_uids=524528 The authours could not demonstrate any significant effect of static lung loadings from -20 to +20 cm of water on a range of ventilatory parameters at submaximal and maximal exertion. There is some (largely anecdotal) evidnece that it is exhale resistance/work that contributes to rapid/shallow/ineffective respiration in divers suffering from CO2 toxicity. Exhale resistance is higher with the counterlung deeper than the chest. So where does that leave us? Dunno. Thanks again for posting it here, I was going to reply on TDS but then I thought - best let it through to the keeper Dave T
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30th March 2005, 11:36	#3 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) For those following the TDS thread - I wonder is it possible to ban someone BEFORE they join?? I second that !
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30th March 2005, 17:44	#4 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,435	Mike, thanks for posting the link here, I was wondering what they were refering to. But the TDS thread is a bit ... exhausting, for the lack of a better word, so I figured, later, maybe later. Can't believe it, but I had already downloaded Kellon's article ... . Thanks for the response, Dave. Stuart and I discussed the issue of banning briefly. It really should be his final decision as it is his website, but I'm sure he won't dick around. That rug is gonna be pulled so fast it's gonna make his head spin. 86ing someone before he gets to the door ... well ya'll can send Stuart a PM suggesting it. After the last tyrades at TDS I certainly won't object. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.'!"
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30th March 2005, 21:48	#5 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 960	Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) Mike, thanks for posting the link here, I was wondering what they were refering to. But the TDS thread is a bit ... exhausting, for the lack of a better word, so I figured, later, maybe later. Can't believe it, but I had already downloaded Kellon's article ... . Thanks for the response, Dave. Stuart and I discussed the issue of banning briefly. It really should be his final decision as it is his website, but I'm sure he won't dick around. That rug is gonna be pulled so fast it's gonna make his head spin. 86ing someone before he gets to the door ... well ya'll can send Stuart a PM suggesting it. After the last tyrades at TDS I certainly won't object. Maybe I missed something. Why to ban someone on from TDS before he join here? Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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30th March 2005, 22:30	#6 (permalink)
dteubner Pedant Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 216	There is an individual who has started posting on TDS after being banned from DiveOz some time ago see: http://www.thedecostop.com/forums/sh...4&page=1&pp=30 It's probably a bit unfair to ban someone before they've even joined but it's fair to say that Stefan's "exhausting" describes the DiveOz expereince quite nicely. DiveOz is certainly much less irritating without him but it just might be that, like the grain of sand that irritates the oyster to form the pearl (note - need vomiting smilie), his unique style does bring out some interesting points, mostly from other people. Dave T
(Offline)

31st March 2005, 08:43	#7 (permalink)
Steve Ladies bring a plate Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss MK 15.X Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth - Australia Posts: 1,100	Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog
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31st March 2005, 08:52	#8 (permalink)
dteubner Pedant Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 216	Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog Five time smarter than you, mate.
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31st March 2005, 15:49	#9 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 707	Jack Kellon Great Article! Does anyone know if Jack Kellon is involved with the industry any more? The article was marked something like 1998 while he was at Cochran here in Dallas. Damn- just down the street! I was curious if he moved on or does anyone know of his where abouts? If it’s in Dallas I would gladly like to meet him. Thanks, Andrew
(Offline)

31st March 2005, 16:11	#10 (permalink)
trob09 . Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 698	Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) Can Fifi stay though? Man, that is one smart dog If only fifi would do the posting...
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