re selling ccr ???

Genesis

My great grandfather didn't have to ask permission to do something that others believe required a class - nor did he have to take one. There was no license required to ride a horse......

My grandfather went off to war with minimal training, told to do one thing - shoot the other guys who want to make sure you have no freedom in the future. He survived that, and is part of why we are here today. He also drove an automobile - without a driver license - at least initially.

Those who propose that one "must" take a class within the diving realm - no matter what it may be for or who may be teaching it - are proposing that one's freedom to engage in an act that contains its risks within a profoundly personal realm be restricted. This is not driving a car or flying a plane, where when one screws up there is frequent collateral damage to those who had no voice in the decision to proceed, nor were they willing accomplices.

This sort of demand is identical to demanding the right to control who I sleep with in the privacy of my own home. After all, if I contract some horrible disease and die as a consequence, my children and relatives will be equally bereft from that event as if I cack myself underwater. Likewise if I choose to drink my liver to destruction or eat to the point that I am unable to move. All three of these acts may result in my injury or death, yet all - just like diving - are profoundly personal decisions.

When presented with this reality and asked to examine their position in light of what it truly represents, it appears that the response is not one of reasoned debate but an angry lashing out and displaying of a pair of red butt cheeks.

I would think that if one is ready to tell someone they cannot engage in a risky behavior without a class first - and proposes to physically prevent someone from doing so by using means beyond personal persuasion, including forming cartels with commercial operations to press their view - they would likewise insist on interfering with the selection of one's bedpartner, the purchase of that 5th of Whiskey or the Quarter-pounder with cheese......

There is indeed not even a legal justification for this position, at least in the US. Mr. Gentile faced precisely this sort of interference when he attempted to dive the Monitor - the judge, in striking down the restrictions, quoted the Idaho Law Review when he stated in his opinion:

"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."

That, ultimately, is where the difference of opinion rests.

wedivebc

This is not intended to be anti American (my wife and my bestfriend are two) but I was surprised this year when my insurance carrier (Willis) offered a discount on my instructor insurance provided I don't offer training to Americans. Apparently the court system is getting so out of hand with high civil judgements that insurance companies are running scared. I think the problem is civil suits that are heard by juries, people who understand the mechanics of scuba diving less than they understand the law.
One poster mentioned withholding the O2 and DIL injection which was to be sent to the instructor. I remember reading in a gun mag where you could buy an UZI in the classifieds with the firing pin removed. The advert underneath had UZI firing pins for sale.
Bottom line I think the decision is based on who the buyer is and partially where they are located and like DR Mike said, if I knew the guy and knew what he was using it for, no problem.

__________________
Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die

Genesis

There is a solution to this in Florida is known as "The Sportsman Act."

It was enacted to protect public access to land for hunting, primarily, over exactly the same issue - people were getting hurt (e.g. eaten by a gator, shot by another hunter accidentally, stepping in a gopher hole and breaking their leg, etc) and suing the landowners.

The law states, quite plainly, that so long as no fee is charged for access the landowner is not responsible - even for dangers he knows exist on the land.

This is statutory protection - and it works. It does what no waiver can do - it bars suits, even by next of kin - because it doesn't say you can't sue - it says there is no liability! No liability, no basis for the suit. That's that.

Cite: http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/...375/Sec251.htm

Extending this to all diving would take about 2 sentences. We can solve this problem - if we want to.

In the US at least, it is our fault (as divers) that we don't have this protection. Part of the reason we don't have it is IMHO those who argue the point of view opposite to mine know they'd lose their power were they to get behind a lobbying effort to make it law. Those who have already bought into the system have a much simpler reason to oppose it - if you've spend $X to become part of a club, you'll probably fight to keep others from getting in the door for free, right?

__________________
"A venturesome minority will always be eager to get off on their own, and no obstacles should be placed in their path; let them take risks for Godsake, let them get lost, sunburnt, stranded, drowned, eaten by bears, buried alive under avalanches - that is the right and privilege of any free American."
http://www.denninger.net
http://www.diversunion.org/liability.htm - Fix the Diving Cert racket

jont

You only notice our teeth because we stop talking long enough for you to. I assume the American definition of 'good' in this context as being 'surgically enhanced'



HAHAHAHA, my friend you have no idea how correct you are, this isn't a joke the last 5 women that I had "known" have ALL had some form of cosmetic surgery!!! And yes most of us in the states can't shut the F *** up.

Look as far as selling let the "buyer be ware", I'd sell an Rebreather to a monkey if they would pay, its not my problem and its not our responsibility to govern others. People make bad decisions, you can inform but thats it.

ccr_ada

tut tut tut
skeletor that was a try dive in a controlled environment

Stay on this thread or start another Skeletor.

I was on a try dive and was not intending on buying a
Kiss but wanted a go in a controlled environment. So
that response is relevant to the original question
relating to RESELLING rebreathers.

What I am getting at with this question is:

Is it a bad idea to sell a piece of equipment that can
kill you to someone whom is not trained in it's use?

Could you morally cope with the death of someone you
have sold a unit to knowing they have had no training
on it?

CCRs have a bad enough name without selling them willy
nilly to the highest bidder.

has it ever gon to court with the seller of a ccr and an unfortunate buyers family trying to sue??


just my 2p

ada

Drmike

Wrong

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

silent running

[quote=Genesis]My great grandfather didn't have to ask permission to do something that others believe required a class - nor did he have to take one. There was no license required to ride a horse......

My grandfather went off to war with minimal training, told to do one thing - shoot the other guys who want to make sure you have no freedom in the future. He survived that, and is part of why we are here today. He also drove an automobile - without a driver license - at least initially.

Those who propose that one "must" take a class within the diving realm - no matter what it may be for or who may be teaching it - are proposing that one's freedom to engage in an act that contains its risks within a profoundly personal realm be restricted. This is not driving a car or flying a plane, where when one screws up there is frequent collateral damage to those who had no voice in the decision to proceed, nor were they willing accomplices.

Hello Genesis, I disagree with your premise. I think the world really is very different from the time of our grandfathers. Mostly in a good way. The world is now more densely packed with people and our actions do affect many more people than your grandfather would have if he had fallen off a horse and broken his back.
This is one of the problems with socialized healthcare -if everybody has to pay for your mistakes, then they will want to have a say in the way you live your life. This is the origin of helmet and seatbelt and no smoking laws.
So in one sense you're right, our freedoms are being curtailed. And obviously it's not always a good thing. Is there a benefit? I wore a helmet while riding my motorcycle and after several accidents, I have to say that I'm glad I did. I might not be here today if it weren't for those laws, as I was persueded through the threat of a fine to wear a helmet and further take my safety seriously. As I rode more, I took it 1 step further and got a jacket that had a really good backpad in it. And I'm sure that after being thrown 80ft in my last accident and landing on my back I would have been paralizied if had not started taking my safety more seriously.
Very few people are true self starters. So what would the world look like if those were the only people who got to go diving? I doubt any manufacturer would have even thought about trying to bring a CCR to market, much less the first regulator. Should we really just let the young and over-enthusuastic learn the hard way? That seems a bit cruel. We all have at least 1 thing in common -we were all young and once poorly informed.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance... ! -Andy

divetheworld

I've just read this thread, and have more than a passing interest, you all know my background.
Mike, inspired writing. Especially respect the open minded discription of acceptable users (the bit in brackets). I've got to say that I agree whole-heartedly with this entire post.
IMHO there is a line to be drawn between protecting the common good, and perpetuating the elitist attitude of many.

In essence, we should promote safe rebreather diving, without stiffling innovation. Keep an open mind with regards to certification and understand that knowledge AND experience makes the diver, not the badge.

It's just a shame that I would need to shell out the best part of £500-600 to get a peice of paper that proves to Tom, Dick or Harry that I know what I'm doing on my home-build. There are many on this board that are in the same boat.
Still, we are a minority. Best just get used to it.

__________________

Mike Rowley

One point that doesn't appear to have surfaced in this discussion is the factor of CE marking within the EU.

As you might imagine, our rulers in Brussels have got in on our act, for our own benefit of course after all, we do need to be protected from ourselves.

They have a directive called the Personal Protective Equipment Directive within which they have written a standard for rebreathers, EN14143. This has been incorporated into member states law and in the UK is BSEN14143.

Under this it is a criminal offence to sell a rebreather within the EU that is not CE marked. This applies to second hand rebreathers as well as new. It is not an offence to own such a machine or use it, only to sell it.

I have not heard of anyone being prosecuted under this as yet. Whether some jobsworth bureaucrat would be minded to have a go in the event of an incident whereby someone died or was injured after using such a machine is another matter.

Mike

wedivebc

Food for thought. The tobacco industry manufactures a product that requires no certification for its use other than an age limit in some countries and and KILLs 50% of those who use it on a regular basis.

__________________
Cheers,

Dave....

Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die