simple HUD

denzel · 3rd January 2006, 17:32

Isn't there something to say for Keep It Simple Stupid also when it comes to HUD's?
The sequency thingy looks really cool, but also complicated. Never ever having used one I might be talking absolute bollox (happens more often) but about 10 different flashes seems to much for me. Why not just green for around your setpoint (+ or - 0.1), red slow flash for low and red fast for high.
What does it really help me if I know wheather it is .4 or .6 or .7? I'm way below setpoint, that's what's counts.
And then it comes down to green, nice calm relax.... red, check gauge.
???
denz.

Genesis · 3rd January 2006, 17:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Anyway, for FYI, I found out that the "Smithers Code" was incorporated into the US patent filed by Juergensen Marines. So was the vibrating HUD. Etc...

So if I was to build HUD system myself, I wouldn't use the code unless I get permission from Juergensen Marines.

YMMV if you are a manufacturer and try to sell products in/to the US with any of those features covered in the patent...

If 'yer interested.....

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...rating+AND+hud

bgpartri · 4th January 2006, 04:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Anyway, for FYI, I found out that the "Smithers Code" was incorporated into the US patent filed by Juergensen Marines. So was the vibrating HUD. Etc...

He may have a little trouble defending a patent when there have already been several products incorporating the ideas. Kevin Gur has been making vibrating devices for a long time, and the Smithers code has been manufactured in several products over the years.

Genesis · 4th January 2006, 04:45

The Smithers code does not appear to be explicitly claimed in the patent application; rather, it is more of a tangental reference as "an example" which would embody the vibrating HUD in conjunction with "blinken lights."

The essence of the patent appears to be the use of vibration specifically used on one's mask or mouth (e.g. about one's face) causing bone conduction of the signal so that one both "hears" and "feels" the alarm. This makes sense, as we all know there's lots of prior art using vibrating motors (a motor twisting an intentionally-off-balance weight) in things like pagers, cellphones and video games - all of which are intended to convey by feel rather than sound an alarm or alert condition of some kind. Indeed, you can look at some of the old OC regulators which were designed to "whistle" (vibrate) when the tank pressure got low enough as a "low gas" alarm! Those predate ANY "consumer" CCR application by a looong time.

"Distinctive ring" for various conditions is also not novel, although its referenced here - again, it looks more like an example rather than the core essence of the claim. (One always tries for the most expansive claims you can get of course!) Therefore I would expect an attempt to claim a patent on the use of a vibrating motor generally (e.g. in a handset) to fail miserably, since it would be trivial to show thousands of prior uses in all manner of application.

Note also that this is a pending patent - it has not (yet) issued. This also means that the PTO's examiners are (in theory anyway) supposed to be looking at any prior art, and, for that matter, such prior art, if any is known, relavent to the application is supposed to be disclosed in the application as the essence of a patent is that it supposed to issue only to protect novel (not done before) things.

Bruce, if there is prior art using a vibrating device on a mouthpiece or mask in the diving area, this is definitely relavent - got any citations to that?

(I ain't a patent attorney and didn't exhaustively read the whole thing, but I did go through the claims and example embodiments that are in the above ref'd document....)

decoweenie · 4th January 2006, 04:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by bgpartri)

He may have a little trouble defending a patent when there have already been several products incorporating the ideas. Kevin Gur has been making vibrating devices for a long time, and the Smithers code has been manufactured in several products over the years.

I understand what you are saying, but if the patent is awarded, then the examiner should have searched for any prior-art in the same application field as claimed by the patent.

Vibrating phone, for example, has been around before but not used u/w.

Off the top of my head, I can't remember what Kevin Gurr made with u/w vibrating devices ?

Anyway, I am not a patent lawyer nor play one on TV. The only little "knowledge" I have is from quick discussion with lawyers when they were drafting patents for our bring-home-the-bacon work. So I might have made some ASS-umption above...

01RMB · 4th January 2006, 05:11

The Ouroboros HUD uses a vibrating alarm. See http://www.ccrb.co.uk/rebreatherpages/HUD.html

bgpartri · 4th January 2006, 05:20

Kevin had the Orobourus in 2004 with a vibrating moutpiece didn't he? I don't think you can patent something that is already in existing products. Even if rebreathers aren't patented, it's too late to do it now.

It's only of passing interest to me because I don't intend on using it. I just redesigned my HUD and chose not to even include it as an option. All it would have taken is one trace and a transistor to allow it as a future.

But it is an alarm that you cannot distinguish between failed alarm and no alarm. When there is no alarm, the vibrator doesn't go off. When the alarm is broken, the vibrator doesn't go off.

Secondly, unless it is tightly integrated with the computer, it doesn't show all of the alarms. And if it is tightly integrated, the added complexity may in fact reduce the reliability of the system due to the added complexity.

It is also likely to give a lot of false alarms unless it is integrated. The HUD needs to know if it is diving, and what the setpoint is in order to avoid false alarms. False alarms cause people to ignore alarms. Anyone who had spent a lot of time in the water with Inspiration divers knows what I mean.

On balance, I have decided that I won't be offering it.

3rd January 2006, 17:32	#61 (permalink)
denzel Holiday diver Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Perth! Posts: 358	Re: simple HUD Isn't there something to say for Keep It Simple Stupid also when it comes to HUD's? The sequency thingy looks really cool, but also complicated. Never ever having used one I might be talking absolute bollox (happens more often) but about 10 different flashes seems to much for me. Why not just green for around your setpoint (+ or - 0.1), red slow flash for low and red fast for high. What does it really help me if I know wheather it is .4 or .6 or .7? I'm way below setpoint, that's what's counts. And then it comes down to green, nice calm relax.... red, check gauge. ??? denz. __________________ My deepest so far, 558.50 mtr, my rig a LF90D...
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3rd January 2006, 17:38	#62 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: simple HUD Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Anyway, for FYI, I found out that the "Smithers Code" was incorporated into the US patent filed by Juergensen Marines. So was the vibrating HUD. Etc... So if I was to build HUD system myself, I wouldn't use the code unless I get permission from Juergensen Marines. YMMV if you are a manufacturer and try to sell products in/to the US with any of those features covered in the patent... If 'yer interested..... http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...rating+AND+hud
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4th January 2006, 04:24	#63 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 412	Re: simple HUD Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Anyway, for FYI, I found out that the "Smithers Code" was incorporated into the US patent filed by Juergensen Marines. So was the vibrating HUD. Etc... He may have a little trouble defending a patent when there have already been several products incorporating the ideas. Kevin Gur has been making vibrating devices for a long time, and the Smithers code has been manufactured in several products over the years. __________________ http://www.shearwaterresearch.com Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
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4th January 2006, 04:45	#64 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,396	Re: simple HUD The Smithers code does not appear to be explicitly claimed in the patent application; rather, it is more of a tangental reference as "an example" which would embody the vibrating HUD in conjunction with "blinken lights." The essence of the patent appears to be the use of vibration specifically used on one's mask or mouth (e.g. about one's face) causing bone conduction of the signal so that one both "hears" and "feels" the alarm. This makes sense, as we all know there's lots of prior art using vibrating motors (a motor twisting an intentionally-off-balance weight) in things like pagers, cellphones and video games - all of which are intended to convey by feel rather than sound an alarm or alert condition of some kind. Indeed, you can look at some of the old OC regulators which were designed to "whistle" (vibrate) when the tank pressure got low enough as a "low gas" alarm! Those predate ANY "consumer" CCR application by a looong time. "Distinctive ring" for various conditions is also not novel, although its referenced here - again, it looks more like an example rather than the core essence of the claim. (One always tries for the most expansive claims you can get of course!) Therefore I would expect an attempt to claim a patent on the use of a vibrating motor generally (e.g. in a handset) to fail miserably, since it would be trivial to show thousands of prior uses in all manner of application. Note also that this is a pending patent - it has not (yet) issued. This also means that the PTO's examiners are (in theory anyway) supposed to be looking at any prior art, and, for that matter, such prior art, if any is known, relavent to the application is supposed to be disclosed in the application as the essence of a patent is that it supposed to issue only to protect novel (not done before) things. Bruce, if there is prior art using a vibrating device on a mouthpiece or mask in the diving area, this is definitely relavent - got any citations to that? (I ain't a patent attorney and didn't exhaustively read the whole thing, but I did go through the claims and example embodiments that are in the above ref'd document....)
(Offline)

4th January 2006, 04:58	#65 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: simple HUD Quote: (Originally Posted by bgpartri) He may have a little trouble defending a patent when there have already been several products incorporating the ideas. Kevin Gur has been making vibrating devices for a long time, and the Smithers code has been manufactured in several products over the years. I understand what you are saying, but if the patent is awarded, then the examiner should have searched for any prior-art in the same application field as claimed by the patent. Vibrating phone, for example, has been around before but not used u/w. Off the top of my head, I can't remember what Kevin Gurr made with u/w vibrating devices ? Anyway, I am not a patent lawyer nor play one on TV. The only little "knowledge" I have is from quick discussion with lawyers when they were drafting patents for our bring-home-the-bacon work. So I might have made some ASS-umption above... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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4th January 2006, 05:11	#66 (permalink)
01RMB Evolving Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 192	Re: simple HUD The Ouroboros HUD uses a vibrating alarm. See http://www.ccrb.co.uk/rebreatherpages/HUD.html __________________ Cheers Rod
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4th January 2006, 05:20	#67 (permalink)
bgpartri Rebreather Zealot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Titan Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 412	Re: simple HUD Kevin had the Orobourus in 2004 with a vibrating moutpiece didn't he? I don't think you can patent something that is already in existing products. Even if rebreathers aren't patented, it's too late to do it now. It's only of passing interest to me because I don't intend on using it. I just redesigned my HUD and chose not to even include it as an option. All it would have taken is one trace and a transistor to allow it as a future. But it is an alarm that you cannot distinguish between failed alarm and no alarm. When there is no alarm, the vibrator doesn't go off. When the alarm is broken, the vibrator doesn't go off. Secondly, unless it is tightly integrated with the computer, it doesn't show all of the alarms. And if it is tightly integrated, the added complexity may in fact reduce the reliability of the system due to the added complexity. It is also likely to give a lot of false alarms unless it is integrated. The HUD needs to know if it is diving, and what the setpoint is in order to avoid false alarms. False alarms cause people to ignore alarms. Anyone who had spent a lot of time in the water with Inspiration divers knows what I mean. On balance, I have decided that I won't be offering it. __________________ http://www.shearwaterresearch.com Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.
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