What cylinder characteristics are preferred

leadking · 14th December 2005, 01:13

I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users;

1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi)

2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi)

3. Price (heavy but cheap)

wizbang · 14th December 2005, 02:02

I use the Faber 3ltrs. Fit nice and snug.
If I could change anything I would like the same size tank to hold 5ltrs of gas. (not wishing for much I know, but hay, someasked)

Deep Thought · 15th December 2005, 02:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking)

I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users;

1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi)

2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi)

3. Price (heavy but cheap)

Hey

I think this guy is asking all of the divers in North America if they are satisfied with the size / shape / weight of rebreathers bottles currently available. If he has the ability to make this happen, here is my two cents;

I would like a dive cylinder that is lightweight for travel, and maximizes the stored capacity of gas while being as small as possible. This isn’t un-realistic, it is a matter of what type of material is used and the pressure.

One of the significant cool things about rebreathers is how compact / efficient they are, and if I can ask for more in a small space –YES PLEASE!

I have no objection to filling dil and oxygen to 3442, but I understand that some divers may only have access to industrial bottles at 2400, or a booster may limit fills to 3000, and I understand that some divers will not fill oxygen beyond 2400??? If I can get more compressed gas in the same relative size as the 2/3 liters currently available, I don’t mind the 3442 rating at all.

1. Weight - Neutral to slightly negative, you’re the Lead King and you ship lead all over the world so I know that I can always add weight when I travel. I don’t want to get penalized by shrinking baggage allowances when lead is at every dive site worldwide. Another factor is the “butt heavy” factor, assuming that you have a very negative cylinder I would assume that a fair amount of the weight would be in the neck of the cylinder which would also adversely affect your trim on many rebreathers.
2. Total Gas Volume (-2 neg. 3442) Not sure I understand the -2 neg 3442, although I know you just made some negative 3442 – I would reply that if you copied the diameter and weight of the Faber 2/3 liter cylinders but used a material that would allow you to have a higher pressure / volume – Yes Please. It sounds like that if I were to fill it to less pressure, than I would be no worse off than what is now available at 2400+ fill pressures.
3. Price (heavy but cheap) Sorry but you got me again? Price does not equate to heavy but cheap? If I compare the current Faber tanks and I realize that cost of steel is up in the world market, but currently the tanks are overpriced! Strictly regarding price, I dive a rebreather which is not cheap to begin with and I do it because I like it, not because it is cheap. Therefore if I could get a better cylinder than is on the market for equal to or less money – Yahoo!

Is it realistic to get more air in the same relative shape / weight of 2/3 liter cylinders that are now on the market? Please elaborate on what choices are available.

Philippe GERIN · 15th December 2005, 14:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking)

I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users;

1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi)

2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi)

3. Price (heavy but cheap)

Hi there,
1. I don't understand why in 2006, the concept of "low pressure" (and therefore the + rating) is still used in Northern America as it was in the 50's. In our modern world and with the materials available, I personally think that low pressure is outdated.
2. Tanks with these characteristics are standard, widely used worldwide for years. Work great. Ther are not new (except maybe for PST!

). See Faber range of products for a reference. a good fit for all Rebreather's. Mind you, this concerns only the onboard tanks. Neutral bouyancy for bail out tanks is prefered, but there AL is the material of choice.
3. Tanks manufactured for the scuba industry or the medical industry are overpriced anyway, part going to the manufacturer, part to the distributor/sub-distributor/retailer and nowadays to shipping companies. It's business, nothing wrong with that as long as the consummer is ready to pay.
"Heavy but cheap" implies that different material is used according to the pricing strategy of the finish product ? Year, right! that's true for a minuscule - should I say negligible? - fraction of the consumer price only. This relates to pricing strategy, not much to technical aspects of the tank.
Best
Philippe

mverick · 15th December 2005, 16:34

I would like the new Worthington 40. But, 10lbs less. LOL

It's around 18lbs MT. And, that's a lot to travel with. And also, adds a lot to the rig.

I love the 40cf though. Be great with a new large Meg scrubber. For some really long dives.

I don't mind the little greater diameter. But do they need to weigh 10lbs more then the Faber's? Heck, if they could knock 6lbs off that. I'd be happy.

leadking · 16th December 2005, 13:10

For those who want a lightweight cylinder, why not use a 2 liter 3442 psi cylinder? It provides almost as much gas as a 3 liter 2400 psi cylinder and saves the weight. Just something to think about.

mverick · 16th December 2005, 15:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking)

For those who want a lightweight cylinder, why not use a 2 liter 3442 psi cylinder? It provides almost as much gas as a 3 liter 2400 psi cylinder and saves the weight. Just something to think about.

From what is posted. The smaller 19 Worth is still heavier then the Faber 20. Then if they won't boost it to the 3400psi. You're short gas too... with a heavier tank.

-----------psi
---------+10%_ CF _Dia ___Height Weight WeightMT Weight Full
Faber 13 2400_ _13 3.9 ____14 ____5.9 _____-2.25 ___-3.31
Faber 20 2400 __20 3.9 ____19.5 __7.5 ______-1.5 ____-3
Worth 13 3130 __13 4 _____12.5 ___6.9 _____-2.3 ____-3.3
Worth 19 3130 __19 4 _____16.5 ___9.3 _____-2.2 ____-3.8
Worth 30 3130 __30 5.4 ____14.75__14.9 ____-3.9 _____-6
Worth 40 3130 __40 5.4 ____18.75 __18.1 ____-3.3 ____-6.3

Explorer · 16th December 2005, 16:14

I would put on my to be Meg the Worthington 30's. I dive drysuit and in Alberta lakes and the PNW (Pacific North West) off Vancouver Island so the couple extra pounds won't make a difference.

I would only pump up these tanks to 3000 psi only.

USSMEG · 16th December 2005, 23:27

One thing missing in this post is the best Steel Tank NEED's to be Galvanized if you want it around for a life time. I know this as I'm a retester on the side and LOVE Galvanized tanks. I also favor PST, but I'm going to pick up 2 of the Worthington 20's in the next few months and see how they work next year on my MEG.
Paul

Genesis · 17th December 2005, 01:28

IMHO for salt water you need hot-dip galvanized or aluminum. "Spray" galv or "hardcoated" (e.g. Faber) just doesn't cut it IMHO.

What I'd love is the Faber "parkerized" inside and the PST "hot dip" outside. Best of both worlds.

BUT - while I know this runs counter to the grain here that I see above, I'd like my cylinders able to be filled "full" off a 2400 psi supply bottle. I'm skittish around O2 beyond 3k. Other industrial and medical users are too - scuba seems to be the only place where that's pretty much ignored. Every now and then an OC user gets a "surprise" with a deco bottle and reg - so far as I know there's only been one incident with a Rebreather, but it burned a boat to the waterline when it happened.

The counter-argument is of course for travel, especially internationally.....

So for local stuff I'd like a ~20cf LP bottle at a reasonable price with decent balance (not too outrageously head-heavy.) If that's lighter than a HP bottle then maybe that works ok for travel too....

View Poll Results: CYLINDER PREFERENCES
light -neutrally buoyant 2400 psi	7	22.58%
medium-max gas, 3442 psi, couple of lbs. neg	21	67.74%
heavy- costs the least but wall thickness reduces gas 4 lbs neg	3	9.68%
Voters: 31. You may not vote on this poll

14th December 2005, 01:13	#1 (permalink)
leadking New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 56	What cylinder characteristics are preferred I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users; 1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi) 2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi) 3. Price (heavy but cheap)
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14th December 2005, 02:02	#2 (permalink)
wizbang WEB MERMEN Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Vision Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Perth Australia Posts: 379	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred I use the Faber 3ltrs. Fit nice and snug. If I could change anything I would like the same size tank to hold 5ltrs of gas. (not wishing for much I know, but hay, someasked)
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15th December 2005, 02:09	#3 (permalink)
Deep Thought Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Great Lakes Posts: 190	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking) I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users; 1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi) 2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi) 3. Price (heavy but cheap) Hey I think this guy is asking all of the divers in North America if they are satisfied with the size / shape / weight of rebreathers bottles currently available. If he has the ability to make this happen, here is my two cents; I would like a dive cylinder that is lightweight for travel, and maximizes the stored capacity of gas while being as small as possible. This isn’t un-realistic, it is a matter of what type of material is used and the pressure. One of the significant cool things about rebreathers is how compact / efficient they are, and if I can ask for more in a small space –YES PLEASE! I have no objection to filling dil and oxygen to 3442, but I understand that some divers may only have access to industrial bottles at 2400, or a booster may limit fills to 3000, and I understand that some divers will not fill oxygen beyond 2400??? If I can get more compressed gas in the same relative size as the 2/3 liters currently available, I don’t mind the 3442 rating at all. 1. Weight - Neutral to slightly negative, you’re the Lead King and you ship lead all over the world so I know that I can always add weight when I travel. I don’t want to get penalized by shrinking baggage allowances when lead is at every dive site worldwide. Another factor is the “butt heavy” factor, assuming that you have a very negative cylinder I would assume that a fair amount of the weight would be in the neck of the cylinder which would also adversely affect your trim on many rebreathers. 2. Total Gas Volume (-2 neg. 3442) Not sure I understand the -2 neg 3442, although I know you just made some negative 3442 – I would reply that if you copied the diameter and weight of the Faber 2/3 liter cylinders but used a material that would allow you to have a higher pressure / volume – Yes Please. It sounds like that if I were to fill it to less pressure, than I would be no worse off than what is now available at 2400+ fill pressures. 3. Price (heavy but cheap) Sorry but you got me again? Price does not equate to heavy but cheap? If I compare the current Faber tanks and I realize that cost of steel is up in the world market, but currently the tanks are overpriced! Strictly regarding price, I dive a rebreather which is not cheap to begin with and I do it because I like it, not because it is cheap. Therefore if I could get a better cylinder than is on the market for equal to or less money – Yahoo! Is it realistic to get more air in the same relative shape / weight of 2/3 liter cylinders that are now on the market? Please elaborate on what choices are available. __________________ Creature Of Habits; Mostly Bad www.gudcscuba.com
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15th December 2005, 14:02	#4 (permalink)
Philippe GERIN ccr apprentice Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Strasbourg, France Posts: 626	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking) I am working with Worthington to design new 2/3 liter cylinders and want to know what features are important to end users; 1. Weight is most important (neutral buoyancy 2400 psi) 2. Total gas volume ( -2 neg. 3442 psi) 3. Price (heavy but cheap) Hi there, 1. I don't understand why in 2006, the concept of "low pressure" (and therefore the + rating) is still used in Northern America as it was in the 50's. In our modern world and with the materials available, I personally think that low pressure is outdated. 2. Tanks with these characteristics are standard, widely used worldwide for years. Work great. Ther are not new (except maybe for PST! ). See Faber range of products for a reference. a good fit for all Rebreather's. Mind you, this concerns only the onboard tanks. Neutral bouyancy for bail out tanks is prefered, but there AL is the material of choice. 3. Tanks manufactured for the scuba industry or the medical industry are overpriced anyway, part going to the manufacturer, part to the distributor/sub-distributor/retailer and nowadays to shipping companies. It's business, nothing wrong with that as long as the consummer is ready to pay. "Heavy but cheap" implies that different material is used according to the pricing strategy of the finish product ? Year, right! that's true for a minuscule - should I say negligible? - fraction of the consumer price only. This relates to pricing strategy, not much to technical aspects of the tank. Best Philippe
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15th December 2005, 16:34	#5 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 494	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred I would like the new Worthington 40. But, 10lbs less. LOL It's around 18lbs MT. And, that's a lot to travel with. And also, adds a lot to the rig. I love the 40cf though. Be great with a new large Meg scrubber. For some really long dives. I don't mind the little greater diameter. But do they need to weigh 10lbs more then the Faber's? Heck, if they could knock 6lbs off that. I'd be happy.
(Offline)

16th December 2005, 13:10	#6 (permalink)
leadking New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 56	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred For those who want a lightweight cylinder, why not use a 2 liter 3442 psi cylinder? It provides almost as much gas as a 3 liter 2400 psi cylinder and saves the weight. Just something to think about.
(Offline)

16th December 2005, 15:11	#7 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 494	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred Quote: (Originally Posted by leadking) For those who want a lightweight cylinder, why not use a 2 liter 3442 psi cylinder? It provides almost as much gas as a 3 liter 2400 psi cylinder and saves the weight. Just something to think about. From what is posted. The smaller 19 Worth is still heavier then the Faber 20. Then if they won't boost it to the 3400psi. You're short gas too... with a heavier tank. -----------psi ---------+10%_ CF _Dia ___Height Weight WeightMT Weight Full Faber 13 2400_ _13 3.9 ____14 ____5.9 _____-2.25 ___-3.31 Faber 20 2400 __20 3.9 ____19.5 __7.5 ______-1.5 ____-3 Worth 13 3130 __13 4 _____12.5 ___6.9 _____-2.3 ____-3.3 Worth 19 3130 __19 4 _____16.5 ___9.3 _____-2.2 ____-3.8 Worth 30 3130 __30 5.4 ____14.75__14.9 ____-3.9 _____-6 Worth 40 3130 __40 5.4 ____18.75 __18.1 ____-3.3 ____-6.3
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16th December 2005, 16:14	#8 (permalink)
Explorer I will teach you a..... Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 754	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred I would put on my to be Meg the Worthington 30's. I dive drysuit and in Alberta lakes and the PNW (Pacific North West) off Vancouver Island so the couple extra pounds won't make a difference. I would only pump up these tanks to 3000 psi only. __________________ TRAIN WRECKED..... Last edited by Explorer : 17th December 2005 at 04:48. Reason: Pump up pressure limits.
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16th December 2005, 23:27	#9 (permalink)
USSMEG USSMEG Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Mass Posts: 271	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred One thing missing in this post is the best Steel Tank NEED's to be Galvanized if you want it around for a life time. I know this as I'm a retester on the side and LOVE Galvanized tanks. I also favor PST, but I'm going to pick up 2 of the Worthington 20's in the next few months and see how they work next year on my MEG. Paul
(Offline)

17th December 2005, 01:28	#10 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: What cylinder characteristics are preferred IMHO for salt water you need hot-dip galvanized or aluminum. "Spray" galv or "hardcoated" (e.g. Faber) just doesn't cut it IMHO. What I'd love is the Faber "parkerized" inside and the PST "hot dip" outside. Best of both worlds. BUT - while I know this runs counter to the grain here that I see above, I'd like my cylinders able to be filled "full" off a 2400 psi supply bottle. I'm skittish around O2 beyond 3k. Other industrial and medical users are too - scuba seems to be the only place where that's pretty much ignored. Every now and then an OC user gets a "surprise" with a deco bottle and reg - so far as I know there's only been one incident with a Rebreather, but it burned a boat to the waterline when it happened. The counter-argument is of course for travel, especially internationally..... So for local stuff I'd like a ~20cf LP bottle at a reasonable price with decent balance (not too outrageously head-heavy.) If that's lighter than a HP bottle then maybe that works ok for travel too....
(Offline)

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