Which CCR I think is the best...for me.

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 00:41

I've amanded this entry on 12/15/05 to reflect some evolution in my thinking that has come from the very helpful responses that fallowed in this thread. Rebreather world Rocks! (*I have put them in parenthesis, and stars*)
Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be an authority on the subject of rebreathers, I’m not even a rebreather diver yet and I’m not a tec diver, not even nitrox certified…so my opinion is from the perspective of a recreational OC kayak diver, diving 50-100 dives a year for ten years, certified to dive master, (*looking to extend range to more remote locals and probably greater depths/bottom time*). I hope this is helpful to those looking for detailed opinion, thinking of making the switch from OC to CCR who can benefit from an open discussion. Oh, and I have no ties to the dive industry, I welcome opposing opinions, and look forward to learning from any dialogue that comes from this.
My wife and I and our friend dave tried out the Inspiration last thursday and the Sport Kiss and Classic Kiss and Optima this Saturday. Unfortunately Leon could not make it to the PNW REBREATHER REVIEW & EXPERIENCE COURSE on Saturday in Woodinville WA at Bubbles Below, so we did not get to hear a presentation or to try out the megaladon in the pool…big bummer.
My hat is off to Bud at Bubbles Below for sticking his neck out (with liability issues and all the other first timer unknowns that must have gone along with such an endeavor) and putting on such a ground breaking event. I hope that more events like this happen so that people like me, who have very little to go on have a chance to get some first hand experience to overcome their apprehensions. My sense of it is that there are a lot of divers who have shied away from nitrox or trimix and deep tec diving because of the relatively high cost and relatively huge time investment per hour of actual bottom time who would find the latest rebreathers worth the investment and relatively user friendly…with the requisite training. In short, rebreathers, in my humble opinion, have arrived! I have not been so excited about diving since I blew my first bubbles in 94.
All the units we tried were top notch. I don’t think you can make a bad choice from the ones we tried, it’s hard to go wrong… but we did develop a preference. The Long and short of it is that we found Dive Rite’s Optima to come out on top for a variety of reasons. (*Though we went through extensive reconsideration since writing this after looking more closely at the high per hour cost of using the micropore scrubber, please see below*)
It seems, for our purposes and preferences to be the best unit for the price for the fallowing reasons:
- The computers- the Optima comes with two, fully independent constant PO2 computers with HUD (*The HUD is operated by the secondary computer*). The primary is trimix compatable, integrated decompression and has five PO2 set points and can adjust to open circuit on the fly and the screens were quite easy to read and pretty bullet proof. We have decided that we want to have back up computers and that we want real time PO2 and integrated decompression, something that does not come stock on most other CCR’s. This would add something like $2,400 USD to most of the other units, bringing the cost of nearly every other unit near or even over the $7 grand cost of the optima. To duplicate the master computers decompression capabilities we would need to add an additional computer though, because as it turns out the second computer does not have all the same functions (*I've been convinced since, that taking hand written tables will suffice as a back up and is even advised anyway*). Compared to the evolution with the new vision electronics which has only one display for both it’s master and back up computer, one bad crunch (*to the screen*) would put you fully in the the dark without a secondary back up… that vulnerability would make me want at least a back up PO2 unit. Add around $1,200 for a back up computer and now the evolution is $4 grand more expensive…all be it, the evolution has it’s advantages (CE cirt, sleek, *compact*, etc.) oh, and the hammerhead electronics that come with the optima have a built in black box to record what actually happens in the event of some kind of failure or catastrophy…this seems like a good long term thing to track...(wouldn't we all like to know more about what is really causing the rise in accidents?*)
- Keeping it simple: I know this might rile KISS owners, but I found the optima much simpler to use. Having to monitor the O2 sensors so constantly and manually injecting oxygen to keep your PO2 in range as required by the KISS just seemed more complicated to me. Though I realize that I could get used to it, it’s inconvenient and I feel that the risk of added task loading when distracted by stressful or joyful experiences was greater than the risk of faulty electronics. Yes the KISS does involve less electronics and that reduces the number of links in the chain that could go south, but I felt there was actually a greater likelihood that I would screw up (*balancing my own PO2*) than have both my computers failing and was thus uncomfortable with having to adjust my own PO2 by manual injection…and of course with any of units you will always need to be attentive no matter how automatic everything is. If I was not requiring/wanting a constant PO2 decompression computer and not needing/wanting a fully independent back up PO2 computer and knew that for the time being I would definitely be staying within recreational limits then the sport KISS would be my choice. It’s simple in many respects, it’s well made and very affordable…a little over $4 grand.

- Adjusting Loop Volume: The optima felt easier to adjust to. The air loop volume was easier for some reason for me to breathe. In every other unit I’ve dove so far (all be it, in a swimming pool with minimal training) I felt restricted at the end of the inhale and chipmunk cheeked at the end of the exhale, even after messing around with adjusting counter lung volume. So, maybe I’m just a bigger guy and need large counter lungs…that is solvable on the other units but the fact that it was so easy for me to adjust to a comfortable volume from the get go helped me make friends with the optima faster.
- The Fit: the fit of the optima was the most comfortable, I think taking harnesses and clips and back plates and all from dive rites scuba gear made it more familiar (*coming from a OC background, though i don't own any DR gear*) and all the years of D&R that has gone into the dive rite gear is evident in the quality and adjustability and overall feel of the optima. I found the unit to be more stream lined than the Inspiration. It’s narrower, (*Felt like it had less drag in the water*) and less bulky even though it has larger capacity tanks and thus I’m assuming less drag in current.
- Weight: ok, there are some really non-exact calculation ratios to be noodled over and it is a little hard to really get a good sense of the overall impact that each unit has to your total weight on land when preparing for cold water dry suit diving. I almost wish there was a standard diver specs to model off of (x diver at x weight, with x body fat and x dry suit and undergarments needs x amount of led to get x unit down). Steel bottles are heavier, but require less lead…some units are more buoyant than others…lighter but requiring more lead…what does that mean to me in terms of how much overall weight I’m going to be lugging around on shore…unkle. I don’t have hard numbers, but the optima seemed like it would only make me a little heavier (about 10 pounds) than other units that have significantly less capacity in scrubber and gas. Added scrubber and gas capacity is a bonus to me for our remote diving trips (*the optima has a medium scrubber capacity*).
- Scrubber…ok, the scrubber insert looked really well made…but a bit pricy to use ($29usd per cartridge…3 hr recommended duration), compared to $25 for high end sorb granules (*based on what we were told for the inspiration, though scrubber volume varies per unit*), though cost for granules can be significantly less depending on how much you buy, what brand and from whome.
(*Since first writing this there has been much debate as to the cost/benefit of using the micropore scrubber in this thread and others. The cost of the optima/micropore scrubber is roughly twice the cost of equivalent granular scrubber (scrubber costs varies by brand of granules and scrubber capacity but is roughly $6/hr for a comparable volume), lets say it's an extra $6.50 hr for the micropore canister, that is roughly an extra $350 just getting out of the shoot on the first 50 dives...and that is if you are diving regularly enough to use up the canister completely (with the requisite safety margine of course) before having to chuck it. I am imagining there will be plenty of times where more than a week goes between dives...more time than is recommended for saving/reusing a partially used canister. I'm guessing that an hour and a half is the max time i'm going to be diving at one time. A one time dive for an hour and a half on a canister that costs $30 is $20 hr. I thought one of the main attractions to the optima was it's competative price? It won't take long before the 1-3 grand I save buying the optima, which costs $7 grand, is expendid in it's high per hour operation.. the bulk of the scrubber presents potential chalanges in shipping/customs to remote locations which all in all has left me seriously rethinking which CCR is best for me. the good news is that i just talked to Rudi of IANTD, the one who gave the demo. I asked him if I understood correctly that there would be a canister insert for granular scrubber, as i have not been able to verify this with Dive Rite. He told me there was one sitting in front of him on his desk right now, a stainless steel insert and it will be available in march for around $200. It will have a slightly reduced duration, he said probably 2 1/2 hrs instead of three...and the cost per cartridge of the micropore insert is likely to come down as economy of scale is reached in production levels.*) The granules are likely a good choice for those times when for whatever reason you don’t need the extra capacity and will be disposing of the sorb after one use (like when you just want to do one dive and won’t be doing another within a few days).
(*All this makes me very happy, as the high cost of the micropore canister was a deal breaker, smelled fishy, sounded like a captive market kind of thing that I didn't want to get caught in but instead, I can now say with confidence after much consideration I that the optima remains my number one pic, though I will still be looking into the meg, and who knows, things could change. I expect to throw down and buy a unit within a few months. I have also been reading up on the benefits of the canister and if the cost comes down a bit, it looks like it certainly has it's applications. It aparently shows promise for recovering from a flood without forcing going off the loop, less likely to cause caustic cocktail and eliminates the possibility of channeling.*) The canister does not require tamping or pouring of granules and looks like the micropores would give you more consistent reactant field. I like that for the times when we are in the rain camping, not in a dry indoor envrionment, the scrubber replancement is sealed and a synch to swap and thus less likely to take on water.
- The bottles: I liked the steel bottles, they are large, 27 cubic foot. The large diameter of the bottles makes the unit (*specifically the cover*) compatable with smaller bottles, and it’s an enclosed unit…I like the option to use smaller bottles, even aluminum (*so that when traveling you are more likely to find compatable bottles and not have to lug the seels along with you*). Oh, and unlike the inspiration or evolution, the first stage is not proprietary…a standard DIN fitting valved bottle will work, so presumably (*there's one more reason*) you’re more likely to be able to leave your bottles at home when traveling and be able to find compatable one’s where you land. Oh, and price per fill: I got a quote of $15-20 for an O2 fill on the 27 cf tanks.
- Topping Off: It was also suggested that soon, there will be fittings (I believe it’s called a whip) that will allow you to top off your tanks without disconnecting them and allow you hang extra bottles in line… I like that too, I might need that flexibility some day or may have two half filled bottles and may want to use them together if I can’t do a top off (*forgot to ask Rudi to clarify this, still uncertain*).
- The Cover: ok, I think the cover could use some work but still is preferable to a bulky hard cover plate for my purposes. It seems that the strapping system that holds the scrubber and bottles in place gives a bit. The lack of molded wells to hold it all in place required a bit of finessing when putting the cover on because the cover has a molded seat at the bottom end that has to be lined up right in order to close it. I’m willing to put up with this but imagine that with a little more thinking this fitting could be mounted on the back plate without reducing the flexibility of using different bottles, thus allowing the cover to go on easier. (*the cover can be left off to accomodate larger bottles...but not manufacturer recomended...probably because passers by won't see the brand name...the unit seems tough enough to leave exposed otherwise*)
That is it for now, still bummed we didn’t get to try the megaladon and will pursue that further before we take the final plunge which will likely be sometime in the spring... I am confident that it is just a matter of time before we scrape together the clams and go for it. thanks for reading.
george

***jradomski*** · 13th December 2005, 00:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

The computers- the Optima comes with two, fully independent constant PO2 computers with HUD, trimix compatable, integrated decompression and five PO2 set points. They can adjust to open circuit on the fly and the screens were quite easy to read and pretty bullet proof.

no it doesn't.. the primary is a full fledged controller and computer, the secondary is just a po2 monitor with depth and time..

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 03:24

Joe, thanks for the correction, i've looked it up and changed my post...I must have missunderstood the rep.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 13th December 2005, 03:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

no it doesn't.. the primary is a full fledged controller and computer, the secondary is just a po2 monitor with depth and time..

My understanding is that this is coming. It's just not here yet.

***jradomski*** · 13th December 2005, 03:43

Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami)

My understanding is that this is coming. It's just not here yet.

Who knows it may become an option (computer)... Kevin talked about adding it to the HH several years ago but it never materialized..

Don't count on a controller in the secondary
a) first its against his philosophy
b) would require a different cable to be custom manufactured (he doesnt have any spare conductors in the cable).. The cable is prohibitly expensive and needs to be purchased in very large lengths (min 4000ft if I remember correctly)
c) would raise cost more than a few $$ because it would probably mean stocking two different types of wire and connectors..

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 13th December 2005, 03:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

[S]oon, there will be fittings (I believe it’s called a whip) that will allow you to top off your tanks without disconnecting them and allow you hang extra bottles in line…

Would you please clarify and expand on this? It was not discussed at the demo that I attended. Also, what do you mean by "allow you hang extra bottles in line?"

Wow, the Megs could be losing a lot of sales by not attending these demos. When I went to the demo at Ginnie Springs, Florida, USA, they did not attend the in-water session though they did attend the lecture demonstration portion. The in-water session caused me and a friend of mine to both purchase the Optima shortly thereafter.

Not that the failure to attend, alone, ruled the Meg out. However, it is entirely possible that someone that had been waivering between one or the other ultimately made the final decision on what happened in the water that day.

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 04:09

"Would you please clarify and expand on this? It was not discussed at the demo that I attended. Also, what do you mean by "allow you hang extra bottles in line?"
If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle, he concurred with me that you could use these connectors to top off your tanks. As far as I know there is no way to verify this, however.

"Not that the failure to attend, alone, ruled the Meg out. However, it is entirely possible that someone that had been waivering between one or the other ultimately made the final decision on what happened in the water that day."
that is exactly what happened for us. We were going back and forth between buying used inspirations and eventually upgrading them with vision electronics and buying megs. In the megs absence, the optima won us over. though i'd still like to try the meg, it seems like a forgone conclusion for the three of us, I don't know how else to put it, trying the optima out left a very strong positive impression on us that is going to be hard to over ride.

Mike · 13th December 2005, 05:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle, he concurred with me that you could use these connectors to top off your tanks.

Suspect he was wrong. The normal way of adding off board dil or O2 connections is via standard medium pressure feeds - ie same as goes to an inflator from a normal first stage.
To be able to top off tanks you need to have a high pressure connection - ie before the 1st stage on the tank. If you want to do top offs, just buy a whip, there are plenty of online sources for a few hundred $$.

Mike

***caveseeker7*** · 13th December 2005, 05:17

You put quite some thought into your post. Good.

One thing, though.

Quote:

($29usd per cartridge…3 hr recommended duration), compared to $25 for high end sorb granules

Am not sure where you came up with the $25, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.
The Evo holds 4.4 lbs of absorbant, and Sodasorb 6-12 for example is $99/pail or $2.68/lbs.
So a fill costs $11.80 for a stated 2 hr duration, or $5.90/hr.
Since you're likely get more time than that, cost per fill come down.

Those numbers change with units.
For the PRISM for example they are $16.08/fill (6 lbs), good for at least 5 hrs.
Cost per hour for absorbant is $3.21.

Convenient as the cartridges are, currently they are too expensive in my opinion.
Almost twice as much per fill, three times as much per hour, and considerably less duration.

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 17:05

The $25 per fill is admittedly based on an estimation, i'm trying to hunt down the actual number of pounds of granules the adapter canister holds in the optima and then run the numbers. i should have just stated that it was an estimation based on the numbers we did during our Inspiration experience last thursday...the sorb was $50 and provided 2 fills. I'll add the correct numbers to the article as soon as I get them. the quotes we were given at the try out for the canisters were $12...don't know where to get them for that good a deal. the sport kiss was quoted at $8. Don't know the actual weight though so those numbers will vary.
george

13th December 2005, 00:41	#1 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,255	Amended: Which CCR I think is still the best...for me. I've amanded this entry on 12/15/05 to reflect some evolution in my thinking that has come from the very helpful responses that fallowed in this thread. Rebreather world Rocks! (I have put them in parenthesis, and stars) Disclaimer: I don’t claim to be an authority on the subject of rebreathers, I’m not even a rebreather diver yet and I’m not a tec diver, not even nitrox certified…so my opinion is from the perspective of a recreational OC kayak diver, diving 50-100 dives a year for ten years, certified to dive master, (looking to extend range to more remote locals and probably greater depths/bottom time). I hope this is helpful to those looking for detailed opinion, thinking of making the switch from OC to CCR who can benefit from an open discussion. Oh, and I have no ties to the dive industry, I welcome opposing opinions, and look forward to learning from any dialogue that comes from this. My wife and I and our friend dave tried out the Inspiration last thursday and the Sport Kiss and Classic Kiss and Optima this Saturday. Unfortunately Leon could not make it to the PNW REBREATHER REVIEW & EXPERIENCE COURSE on Saturday in Woodinville WA at Bubbles Below, so we did not get to hear a presentation or to try out the megaladon in the pool…big bummer. My hat is off to Bud at Bubbles Below for sticking his neck out (with liability issues and all the other first timer unknowns that must have gone along with such an endeavor) and putting on such a ground breaking event. I hope that more events like this happen so that people like me, who have very little to go on have a chance to get some first hand experience to overcome their apprehensions. My sense of it is that there are a lot of divers who have shied away from nitrox or trimix and deep tec diving because of the relatively high cost and relatively huge time investment per hour of actual bottom time who would find the latest rebreathers worth the investment and relatively user friendly…with the requisite training. In short, rebreathers, in my humble opinion, have arrived! I have not been so excited about diving since I blew my first bubbles in 94. All the units we tried were top notch. I don’t think you can make a bad choice from the ones we tried, it’s hard to go wrong… but we did develop a preference. The Long and short of it is that we found Dive Rite’s Optima to come out on top for a variety of reasons. (Though we went through extensive reconsideration since writing this after looking more closely at the high per hour cost of using the micropore scrubber, please see below) It seems, for our purposes and preferences to be the best unit for the price for the fallowing reasons: - The computers- the Optima comes with two, fully independent constant PO2 computers with HUD (The HUD is operated by the secondary computer). The primary is trimix compatable, integrated decompression and has five PO2 set points and can adjust to open circuit on the fly and the screens were quite easy to read and pretty bullet proof. We have decided that we want to have back up computers and that we want real time PO2 and integrated decompression, something that does not come stock on most other CCR’s. This would add something like $2,400 USD to most of the other units, bringing the cost of nearly every other unit near or even over the $7 grand cost of the optima. To duplicate the master computers decompression capabilities we would need to add an additional computer though, because as it turns out the second computer does not have all the same functions (I've been convinced since, that taking hand written tables will suffice as a back up and is even advised anyway). Compared to the evolution with the new vision electronics which has only one display for both it’s master and back up computer, one bad crunch (to the screen) would put you fully in the the dark without a secondary back up… that vulnerability would make me want at least a back up PO2 unit. Add around $1,200 for a back up computer and now the evolution is $4 grand more expensive…all be it, the evolution has it’s advantages (CE cirt, sleek, compact, etc.) oh, and the hammerhead electronics that come with the optima have a built in black box to record what actually happens in the event of some kind of failure or catastrophy…this seems like a good long term thing to track...(wouldn't we all like to know more about what is really causing the rise in accidents?) - Keeping it simple: I know this might rile KISS owners, but I found the optima much simpler to use. Having to monitor the O2 sensors so constantly and manually injecting oxygen to keep your PO2 in range as required by the KISS just seemed more complicated to me. Though I realize that I could get used to it, it’s inconvenient and I feel that the risk of added task loading when distracted by stressful or joyful experiences was greater than the risk of faulty electronics. Yes the KISS does involve less electronics and that reduces the number of links in the chain that could go south, but I felt there was actually a greater likelihood that I would screw up (balancing my own PO2) than have both my computers failing and was thus uncomfortable with having to adjust my own PO2 by manual injection…and of course with any of units you will always need to be attentive no matter how automatic everything is. If I was not requiring/wanting a constant PO2 decompression computer and not needing/wanting a fully independent back up PO2 computer and knew that for the time being I would definitely be staying within recreational limits then the sport KISS would be my choice. It’s simple in many respects, it’s well made and very affordable…a little over $4 grand. - Adjusting Loop Volume: The optima felt easier to adjust to. The air loop volume was easier for some reason for me to breathe. In every other unit I’ve dove so far (all be it, in a swimming pool with minimal training) I felt restricted at the end of the inhale and chipmunk cheeked at the end of the exhale, even after messing around with adjusting counter lung volume. So, maybe I’m just a bigger guy and need large counter lungs…that is solvable on the other units but the fact that it was so easy for me to adjust to a comfortable volume from the get go helped me make friends with the optima faster. - The Fit: the fit of the optima was the most comfortable, I think taking harnesses and clips and back plates and all from dive rites scuba gear made it more familiar (coming from a OC background, though i don't own any DR gear) and all the years of D&R that has gone into the dive rite gear is evident in the quality and adjustability and overall feel of the optima. I found the unit to be more stream lined than the Inspiration. It’s narrower, (Felt like it had less drag in the water) and less bulky even though it has larger capacity tanks and thus I’m assuming less drag in current. - Weight: ok, there are some really non-exact calculation ratios to be noodled over and it is a little hard to really get a good sense of the overall impact that each unit has to your total weight on land when preparing for cold water dry suit diving. I almost wish there was a standard diver specs to model off of (x diver at x weight, with x body fat and x dry suit and undergarments needs x amount of led to get x unit down). Steel bottles are heavier, but require less lead…some units are more buoyant than others…lighter but requiring more lead…what does that mean to me in terms of how much overall weight I’m going to be lugging around on shore…unkle. I don’t have hard numbers, but the optima seemed like it would only make me a little heavier (about 10 pounds) than other units that have significantly less capacity in scrubber and gas. Added scrubber and gas capacity is a bonus to me for our remote diving trips (the optima has a medium scrubber capacity). - Scrubber…ok, the scrubber insert looked really well made…but a bit pricy to use ($29usd per cartridge…3 hr recommended duration), compared to $25 for high end sorb granules (based on what we were told for the inspiration, though scrubber volume varies per unit), though cost for granules can be significantly less depending on how much you buy, what brand and from whome. (Since first writing this there has been much debate as to the cost/benefit of using the micropore scrubber in this thread and others. The cost of the optima/micropore scrubber is roughly twice the cost of equivalent granular scrubber (scrubber costs varies by brand of granules and scrubber capacity but is roughly $6/hr for a comparable volume), lets say it's an extra $6.50 hr for the micropore canister, that is roughly an extra $350 just getting out of the shoot on the first 50 dives...and that is if you are diving regularly enough to use up the canister completely (with the requisite safety margine of course) before having to chuck it. I am imagining there will be plenty of times where more than a week goes between dives...more time than is recommended for saving/reusing a partially used canister. I'm guessing that an hour and a half is the max time i'm going to be diving at one time. A one time dive for an hour and a half on a canister that costs $30 is $20 hr. I thought one of the main attractions to the optima was it's competative price? It won't take long before the 1-3 grand I save buying the optima, which costs $7 grand, is expendid in it's high per hour operation.. the bulk of the scrubber presents potential chalanges in shipping/customs to remote locations which all in all has left me seriously rethinking which CCR is best for me. the good news is that i just talked to Rudi of IANTD, the one who gave the demo. I asked him if I understood correctly that there would be a canister insert for granular scrubber, as i have not been able to verify this with Dive Rite. He told me there was one sitting in front of him on his desk right now, a stainless steel insert and it will be available in march for around $200. It will have a slightly reduced duration, he said probably 2 1/2 hrs instead of three...and the cost per cartridge of the micropore insert is likely to come down as economy of scale is reached in production levels.) The granules are likely a good choice for those times when for whatever reason you don’t need the extra capacity and will be disposing of the sorb after one use (like when you just want to do one dive and won’t be doing another within a few days). (All this makes me very happy, as the high cost of the micropore canister was a deal breaker, smelled fishy, sounded like a captive market kind of thing that I didn't want to get caught in but instead, I can now say with confidence after much consideration I that the optima remains my number one pic, though I will still be looking into the meg, and who knows, things could change. I expect to throw down and buy a unit within a few months. I have also been reading up on the benefits of the canister and if the cost comes down a bit, it looks like it certainly has it's applications. It aparently shows promise for recovering from a flood without forcing going off the loop, less likely to cause caustic cocktail and eliminates the possibility of channeling.) The canister does not require tamping or pouring of granules and looks like the micropores would give you more consistent reactant field. I like that for the times when we are in the rain camping, not in a dry indoor envrionment, the scrubber replancement is sealed and a synch to swap and thus less likely to take on water. - The bottles: I liked the steel bottles, they are large, 27 cubic foot. The large diameter of the bottles makes the unit (specifically the cover) compatable with smaller bottles, and it’s an enclosed unit…I like the option to use smaller bottles, even aluminum (so that when traveling you are more likely to find compatable bottles and not have to lug the seels along with you). Oh, and unlike the inspiration or evolution, the first stage is not proprietary…a standard DIN fitting valved bottle will work, so presumably (there's one more reason) you’re more likely to be able to leave your bottles at home when traveling and be able to find compatable one’s where you land. Oh, and price per fill: I got a quote of $15-20 for an O2 fill on the 27 cf tanks. - Topping Off: It was also suggested that soon, there will be fittings (I believe it’s called a whip) that will allow you to top off your tanks without disconnecting them and allow you hang extra bottles in line… I like that too, I might need that flexibility some day or may have two half filled bottles and may want to use them together if I can’t do a top off (forgot to ask Rudi to clarify this, still uncertain). - The Cover: ok, I think the cover could use some work but still is preferable to a bulky hard cover plate for my purposes. It seems that the strapping system that holds the scrubber and bottles in place gives a bit. The lack of molded wells to hold it all in place required a bit of finessing when putting the cover on because the cover has a molded seat at the bottom end that has to be lined up right in order to close it. I’m willing to put up with this but imagine that with a little more thinking this fitting could be mounted on the back plate without reducing the flexibility of using different bottles, thus allowing the cover to go on easier. (the cover can be left off to accomodate larger bottles...but not manufacturer recomended...probably because passers by won't see the brand name...the unit seems tough enough to leave exposed otherwise) That is it for now, still bummed we didn’t get to try the megaladon and will pursue that further before we take the final plunge which will likely be sometime in the spring... I am confident that it is just a matter of time before we scrape together the clams and go for it. thanks for reading. george __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 16th December 2005 at 22:12. Reason: correction*
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13th December 2005, 00:54	#2 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) The computers- the Optima comes with two, fully independent constant PO2 computers with HUD, trimix compatable, integrated decompression and five PO2 set points. They can adjust to open circuit on the fly and the screens were quite easy to read and pretty bullet proof. no it doesn't.. the primary is a full fledged controller and computer, the secondary is just a po2 monitor with depth and time.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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13th December 2005, 03:24	#3 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,255	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Joe, thanks for the correction, i've looked it up and changed my post...I must have missunderstood the rep. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th December 2005, 03:35	#4 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,939	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) no it doesn't.. the primary is a full fledged controller and computer, the secondary is just a po2 monitor with depth and time.. My understanding is that this is coming. It's just not here yet. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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13th December 2005, 03:43	#5 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by ScubaDadMiami) My understanding is that this is coming. It's just not here yet. Who knows it may become an option (computer)... Kevin talked about adding it to the HH several years ago but it never materialized.. Don't count on a controller in the secondary a) first its against his philosophy b) would require a different cable to be custom manufactured (he doesnt have any spare conductors in the cable).. The cable is prohibitly expensive and needs to be purchased in very large lengths (min 4000ft if I remember correctly) c) would raise cost more than a few $$ because it would probably mean stocking two different types of wire and connectors.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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13th December 2005, 03:47	#6 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 1,939	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) [S]oon, there will be fittings (I believe it’s called a whip) that will allow you to top off your tanks without disconnecting them and allow you hang extra bottles in line… Would you please clarify and expand on this? It was not discussed at the demo that I attended. Also, what do you mean by "allow you hang extra bottles in line?" Wow, the Megs could be losing a lot of sales by not attending these demos. When I went to the demo at Ginnie Springs, Florida, USA, they did not attend the in-water session though they did attend the lecture demonstration portion. The in-water session caused me and a friend of mine to both purchase the Optima shortly thereafter. Not that the failure to attend, alone, ruled the Meg out. However, it is entirely possible that someone that had been waivering between one or the other ultimately made the final decision on what happened in the water that day. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
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13th December 2005, 04:09	#7 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,255	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. "Would you please clarify and expand on this? It was not discussed at the demo that I attended. Also, what do you mean by "allow you hang extra bottles in line?" If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle, he concurred with me that you could use these connectors to top off your tanks. As far as I know there is no way to verify this, however. "Not that the failure to attend, alone, ruled the Meg out. However, it is entirely possible that someone that had been waivering between one or the other ultimately made the final decision on what happened in the water that day." that is exactly what happened for us. We were going back and forth between buying used inspirations and eventually upgrading them with vision electronics and buying megs. In the megs absence, the optima won us over. though i'd still like to try the meg, it seems like a forgone conclusion for the three of us, I don't know how else to put it, trying the optima out left a very strong positive impression on us that is going to be hard to over ride. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th December 2005, 05:02	#8 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 322	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle, he concurred with me that you could use these connectors to top off your tanks. Suspect he was wrong. The normal way of adding off board dil or O2 connections is via standard medium pressure feeds - ie same as goes to an inflator from a normal first stage. To be able to top off tanks you need to have a high pressure connection - ie before the 1st stage on the tank. If you want to do top offs, just buy a whip, there are plenty of online sources for a few hundred $$. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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13th December 2005, 05:17	#9 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,325	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. You put quite some thought into your post. Good. One thing, though. Quote: ($29usd per cartridge…3 hr recommended duration), compared to $25 for high end sorb granules Am not sure where you came up with the $25, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. The Evo holds 4.4 lbs of absorbant, and Sodasorb 6-12 for example is $99/pail or $2.68/lbs. So a fill costs $11.80 for a stated 2 hr duration, or $5.90/hr. Since you're likely get more time than that, cost per fill come down. Those numbers change with units. For the PRISM for example they are $16.08/fill (6 lbs), good for at least 5 hrs. Cost per hour for absorbant is $3.21. Convenient as the cartridges are, currently they are too expensive in my opinion. Almost twice as much per fill, three times as much per hour, and considerably less duration. __________________ Cheers Stefan "It is still a good day if you are on the green side of the grass! Su amigo Roberto!" Sponsor Lou in Race For Life! Last edited by caveseeker7 : 13th December 2005 at 05:25.
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13th December 2005, 17:05	#10 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,255	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. The $25 per fill is admittedly based on an estimation, i'm trying to hunt down the actual number of pounds of granules the adapter canister holds in the optima and then run the numbers. i should have just stated that it was an estimation based on the numbers we did during our Inspiration experience last thursday...the sorb was $50 and provided 2 fills. I'll add the correct numbers to the article as soon as I get them. the quotes we were given at the try out for the canisters were $12...don't know where to get them for that good a deal. the sport kiss was quoted at $8. Don't know the actual weight though so those numbers will vary. george __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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