Which CCR I think is the best...for me.

Explorer · 13th December 2005, 17:17

Gill,

Glad you had a chance to attend the PNW REBREATHER REVIEW & EXPERIENCE COURSE in Woodinville WA at Bubbles Below. Looked like it was alot of fun.

Jeff

silent running · 13th December 2005, 18:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7)

One thing, though.

Am not sure where you came up with the $25, maybe I'm misunderstanding it.
The Evo holds 4.4 lbs of absorbant, and Sodasorb 6-12 for example is $99/pail or $2.68/lbs.
So a fill costs $11.80 for a stated 2 hr duration, or $5.90/hr.
Since you're likely get more time than that, cost per fill come down.

Those numbers change with units.
For the PRISM for example they are $16.08/fill (6 lbs), good for at least 5 hrs.
Cost per hour for absorbant is $3.21.

Convenient as the cartridges are, currently they are too expensive in my opinion.
Almost twice as much per fill, three times as much per hour, and considerably less duration.

Hi Stefan, good point about cost per hr. The other big problem I see with the cartridges is travel. When I go to Papua New Guinea next July, I will be bringing 2 kegs of 6-12 Sodasorb in my luggage, which will give me an easy 3 weeks worth of diving my Prism. If I had an Optima for such a trip and wanted to use the cartridges, I would need 35 of them! And there would be no way to get them there myself, they would have to be shipped, which adds even more to what is already the most costly Rebreather consumable on the market. It simply does not seem possible to travel by air to a remote destination with enough cartrigdes for even a 1 week trip. Am I missing something?-Andy

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 13th December 2005, 18:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

[T]he quotes we were given at the try out for the canisters were $12...don't know where to get them for that good a deal.

The Extend Air cartridges retail for about $30 each right now for a box of four ($119). It is expected that this will drop to closer to $20 each as production demands increase.

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 13th December 2005, 18:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy)

If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle . . .

Dive Rite makes a sidemount kit (similar to the concept of the Armadillo). I think that this is what this person meant. I was speaking to Lamar Hires, President of Dive Rite, about this within the last week or so. So, I am guessing that if there were a new development involving offboard tanks mounts other than this sidemount kit, he would have shown this to me or told me about it then. He is personally diving this sidemount kit on his unit.

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 19:00

ok, it's becoming clearer to me that the co2 cartridge is the main downside to the optima, from both a cost and a bulk perspective. Just got off the phone with dive rite and found that the cartridge is still the only option, major bummer... they are still "expecting" to offer a canister for granules but have no date as of yet. Of all the retrofits i've heard of, none sound as squirly as tinkering with the co2 scrubber. I made it clear on the phone with dive rite that coming up with another option would likely be a deal breaker for me.
So, it seems that the megaladon and the inspiration are nudging back into the running for me.
I do have a lead on several used inspriations...hmm.
george

***schford*** · 13th December 2005, 19:07

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.

Interesting to see how people view these events and hopefully the manufacturers take notice!

My comment would be that for those that are fortunate enough to have access to this web site, is that before you commit to buy a unit read, read, read and arrange to try short listed units or at least discuss them with contacts you can make through Rebreather World.

Stuart

***caveseeker7*** · 13th December 2005, 20:12

The Inspiration has 5.4 lbs capacity, the Meg about the same.
The Sport Kiss' scrubber holds 5 lbs, the Classic I don't remember.

Sofnolime tends to cost a few bucks more per pail, around 20 I think.
Dive Rite Express sells it, so a price is easy to get.

The cartridge's handling as well as some of the safety advantages are great.
But until it is easily available at dive locations and the price gets down to a
reasonable amount I would not consider it for myself.

**Gill Envy** · 13th December 2005, 22:48

thanks stephan for the figures on the inspiration and the meg and kiss.
george

Genesis · 13th December 2005, 23:33

The truly big advantage to the cartridge is that apparently it is EXTREMELY resistant to "cocktailing" if it gets flooded - to the point that recovering a completely flooded scrubber and loop is not only possible, its practical.

Another less-obvious advantage is that the density of material is higher. This means the scrubber can is smaller for the same capacity, all things being equal, which means less contribution to positive buoyancy. The actual mass of the cartridge is a bit over 4lbs - in the package they weigh 4lbs 10ozs.

Due to the density of the cartridge I suspect that a loose-pack in the same physical space would be woefully inadequate in terms of duration and efficiency - thus, the "right" way to handle a retrofit is a different scrubber body. An insert may work, but you probably won't like the duration you get from it.

HOWEVER, until the cartridge price gets down to $20 or less each its still stupid-f*ing expensive compared to loose-pack sorb. Whether its worth it is an individual decision. It also is a major issue for travel, especially outside the US if you have to ship the cartridges around.....

I have a case of them here and am testing them for my homebuild. I suspect that in the end I will go with loose sorb, simply due to the logistics and cost of diving with these things, but I may make up two cans so I have a choice.....

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 14th December 2005, 00:26

Other than the expense, I consider the cartridges to be an advantage. They are consistent in their result when compared to potential variation in packing sorb. There is potential chaneling of sorb that does not happen with the cartridges. The cartridges handle flooding well. They make for a reduced WOB when used with rebreathers that are made to use them.

I am okay with limiting my bottom time to three hours or so and then having to change. I have checked with a lot of people that travel, and they tell me that shipping or sending along with your dive gear is no problem. Also, more and more places abroad will start to carry the cartridges over time.

13th December 2005, 17:17	#11 (permalink)
Explorer I will teach you a..... Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 773	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Gill, Glad you had a chance to attend the PNW REBREATHER REVIEW & EXPERIENCE COURSE in Woodinville WA at Bubbles Below. Looked like it was alot of fun. Jeff __________________ 20 dwarves, 20 dwarves, 20 dwarves took turns doing handstands on the carpet
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13th December 2005, 18:08	#12 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by caveseeker7) One thing, though. Am not sure where you came up with the $25, maybe I'm misunderstanding it. The Evo holds 4.4 lbs of absorbant, and Sodasorb 6-12 for example is $99/pail or $2.68/lbs. So a fill costs $11.80 for a stated 2 hr duration, or $5.90/hr. Since you're likely get more time than that, cost per fill come down. Those numbers change with units. For the PRISM for example they are $16.08/fill (6 lbs), good for at least 5 hrs. Cost per hour for absorbant is $3.21. Convenient as the cartridges are, currently they are too expensive in my opinion. Almost twice as much per fill, three times as much per hour, and considerably less duration. Hi Stefan, good point about cost per hr. The other big problem I see with the cartridges is travel. When I go to Papua New Guinea next July, I will be bringing 2 kegs of 6-12 Sodasorb in my luggage, which will give me an easy 3 weeks worth of diving my Prism. If I had an Optima for such a trip and wanted to use the cartridges, I would need 35 of them! And there would be no way to get them there myself, they would have to be shipped, which adds even more to what is already the most costly Rebreather consumable on the market. It simply does not seem possible to travel by air to a remote destination with enough cartrigdes for even a 1 week trip. Am I missing something?-Andy
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13th December 2005, 18:48	#13 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) [T]he quotes we were given at the try out for the canisters were $12...don't know where to get them for that good a deal. The Extend Air cartridges retail for about $30 each right now for a box of four ($119). It is expected that this will drop to closer to $20 each as production demands increase. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

13th December 2005, 18:52	#14 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Quote: (Originally Posted by Gillenvy) If my understanding of what the rep said is correct than soon there will be an additional connector outside the unit that will make it easy to connect additional O2 and diluent bottles to the loop, bottles that would hang or be mounted like a pony bottle . . . Dive Rite makes a sidemount kit (similar to the concept of the Armadillo). I think that this is what this person meant. I was speaking to Lamar Hires, President of Dive Rite, about this within the last week or so. So, I am guessing that if there were a new development involving offboard tanks mounts other than this sidemount kit, he would have shown this to me or told me about it then. He is personally diving this sidemount kit on his unit. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

13th December 2005, 19:00	#15 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. ok, it's becoming clearer to me that the co2 cartridge is the main downside to the optima, from both a cost and a bulk perspective. Just got off the phone with dive rite and found that the cartridge is still the only option, major bummer... they are still "expecting" to offer a canister for granules but have no date as of yet. Of all the retrofits i've heard of, none sound as squirly as tinkering with the co2 scrubber. I made it clear on the phone with dive rite that coming up with another option would likely be a deal breaker for me. So, it seems that the megaladon and the inspiration are nudging back into the running for me. I do have a lead on several used inspriations...hmm. george __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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13th December 2005, 19:07	#16 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,562	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us. Interesting to see how people view these events and hopefully the manufacturers take notice! My comment would be that for those that are fortunate enough to have access to this web site, is that before you commit to buy a unit read, read, read and arrange to try short listed units or at least discuss them with contacts you can make through Rebreather World. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
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13th December 2005, 20:12	#17 (permalink)
*caveseeker7* Who loves ya, baby Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Too far from Neverland Posts: 5,454	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. The Inspiration has 5.4 lbs capacity, the Meg about the same. The Sport Kiss' scrubber holds 5 lbs, the Classic I don't remember. Sofnolime tends to cost a few bucks more per pail, around 20 I think. Dive Rite Express sells it, so a price is easy to get. The cartridge's handling as well as some of the safety advantages are great. But until it is easily available at dive locations and the price gets down to a reasonable amount I would not consider it for myself. __________________ Cheers Stefan "Political Correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end.!"
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13th December 2005, 22:48	#18 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,315	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. thanks stephan for the figures on the inspiration and the meg and kiss. george __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

13th December 2005, 23:33	#19 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,397	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. The truly big advantage to the cartridge is that apparently it is EXTREMELY resistant to "cocktailing" if it gets flooded - to the point that recovering a completely flooded scrubber and loop is not only possible, its practical. Another less-obvious advantage is that the density of material is higher. This means the scrubber can is smaller for the same capacity, all things being equal, which means less contribution to positive buoyancy. The actual mass of the cartridge is a bit over 4lbs - in the package they weigh 4lbs 10ozs. Due to the density of the cartridge I suspect that a loose-pack in the same physical space would be woefully inadequate in terms of duration and efficiency - thus, the "right" way to handle a retrofit is a different scrubber body. An insert may work, but you probably won't like the duration you get from it. HOWEVER, until the cartridge price gets down to $20 or less each its still stupid-f*ing expensive compared to loose-pack sorb. Whether its worth it is an individual decision. It also is a major issue for travel, especially outside the US if you have to ship the cartridges around..... I have a case of them here and am testing them for my homebuild. I suspect that in the end I will go with loose sorb, simply due to the logistics and cost of diving with these things, but I may make up two cans so I have a choice.....
(Online)

14th December 2005, 00:26	#20 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,132	Re: Which CCR I think is the best...for me. Other than the expense, I consider the cartridges to be an advantage. They are consistent in their result when compared to potential variation in packing sorb. There is potential chaneling of sorb that does not happen with the cartridges. The cartridges handle flooding well. They make for a reduced WOB when used with rebreathers that are made to use them. I am okay with limiting my bottom time to three hours or so and then having to change. I have checked with a lot of people that travel, and they tell me that shipping or sending along with your dive gear is no problem. Also, more and more places abroad will start to carry the cartridges over time. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

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