eCCR vs. OC fatalities

Genesis · 14th December 2005, 13:50

First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon unless someone (

) shows up on the market with a unit that is both priced far more reasonably and stops treating these things like they're some kind of gold requiring the equivalent of a full-cave-class before you can "have one" - and then the same game gets played if you want to buy ANOTHER one! Never mind the insane delivery delays - again, I can buy dozens of makes of OC gear off the rack. There is not ONE Rebreather which currently is available in this fashion.

Let me be clear here - while you can say "but OC has the same sort of requirements" you're being dishonest if you do - at least in the US. I can buy OC gear from Leisurepro or any one of a number of other online merchants, including a compressor, get in my boat, and go diving - with exactly zero formal qualification. I can also take a "basic" ow class for a couple hundred bucks and then do whatever I'd like. Everyone says "oh that's so horribly dangerous!" and yet the statistics say otherwise - about 100 people cack themselves diving every year. That's simply not that many.

So long as both the hardware and the required class (not "recommended", "required" - and enforced by simply refusing to sell if you don't have it) are 5x that of open circuit with infinitely long leadtimes (compared to "buy it, take it home") this is and will remain a tiny niche market.

Nobody - not even DiveRite - is seriously interested in tackling this issue. DiveRite looked like they might be originally, but as it turns out that was fluff rather than substance.

Now, on to Heather's question...

Before you look at OC .vs. CCR fatalities, you must first get the crap out of the raw numbers, or statistical analysis is pointless. We unfortunately are treated to various organizations and individuals who are all hyped about "pumping up" the fatality numbers, to the point that they are less-than-fully-honest about the true risk which COULD be determined - but is NEVER reported this way. (This problem exists for diving in general, and ALL of the various "subsets" of it fall victim to this tomfoolery)

There are two things which confound an honest analysis:

All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits. We don't call someone who keels over from a coronary while playing GOLF a "golfing death", nor do we call someone who does so while waterskiing or hiking "skiing" or "hiking" deaths. We call them what they are - heart attacks. The sobering reality is that if you have a heart attack in (or on - e.g. fishing!) the water, you're screwed pretty much without exception, and contrary to the common conception that people "know" they're about to keel over, in 50% of MI cases the first SYMPTOM the person has IS the heart attack itself. We as divers not only tolerate this sort of abusive "pumping up" of the numbers, we reward it. When 30% of the deaths (by simple reading) prove out to be medical incidents and fully half might have been (e.g. significant coronary disease - maybe enough to cause the problem - is found on autopsy when the death is "drowning" with no other root cause found) this is no small matter.
Nobody norms the risk to hours or events of exposure. We do for virtually every other risk-based activity, but not here. Why? Probably because if we did we wouldn't like what we saw, and the claims from various agencies and such that diving is "safe" (by whatever definition you care to use) would be shown to be absolute nonsense. The "average vacation diver" might do a couple of dives a year when they're at some resort in the Caribbean or the Keys - their "total exposure" might be quite literally an hour a year! I suspect that the average bottom time for most "divers" (across the entire certified population) is in the single-digit hours annually. This abuse allows people to say that "you're more likely to die driving to the boat than you are diving." Uh huh - the "big lie" is that you probably spend 700 times as many hours in a car annually than the average diver does underwater!

Bottom line - diving in general is a hazardous activity, we choose to participate in it, and all we really want is to be left alone to pursue our passion in this regard. We do no good at all by skewing the risks in either direction. Only through full disclosure and honest reporting can people draw their own conclusions about risk and reward, and where that balance sits for them. Its also the only way we will ever be able to come up with an honest answer to Heather's question......

We're a long way away from being able to do that right now......

ROB DAVIE · 14th December 2005, 14:30

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon....

Let me be clear here - while you can say "but OC has the same sort of requirements" you're being dishonest if you do - at least in the US. I can buy OC gear from Leisurepro or any one of a number of other online merchants, including a compressor, get in my boat, and go diving - with exactly zero formal qualification. I can also take a "basic" ow class for a couple hundred bucks and then do whatever I'd like. Everyone says "oh that's so horribly dangerous!" and yet the statistics say otherwise - about 100 people cack themselves diving every year. That's simply not that many.

So long as both the hardware and the required class (not "recommended", "required" - and enforced by simply refusing to sell if you don't have it) are 5x that of open circuit with infinitely long leadtimes (compared to "buy it, take it home") this is and will remain a tiny niche market.

Nobody - not even DiveRite - is seriously interested in tackling this issue. DiveRite looked like they might be originally, but as it turns out that was fluff rather than substance.

The paradigm shift is in process. It is slow, but it is there.

Most of us do not say that OC has much the same requirements because we have been at this for quite some time now, and are fully aware of the differences.

Diving this equipment is more involved, and requires more training. No one in his or her right mind is going to hand out one of these machines, even for mass quantities of wonga, to people who don't get the training (ESPECIALLY not in litigation crazy Estados Unidos)!!

If that means the market remains smaller over-all, so be it.

ROB DAVIE · 14th December 2005, 14:41

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits. We don't call someone who keels over from a coronary while playing GOLF a "golfing death", nor do we call someone who does so while waterskiing or hiking "skiing" or "hiking" deaths. We call them what they are - heart attacks. The sobering reality is that if you have a heart attack in (or on - e.g. fishing!) the water, you're screwed pretty much without exception, and contrary to the common conception that people "know" they're about to keel over, in 50% of MI cases the first SYMPTOM the person has IS the heart attack itself. We as divers not only tolerate this sort of abusive "pumping up" of the numbers, we reward it. When 30% of the deaths (by simple reading) prove out to be medical incidents and fully half might have been (e.g. significant coronary disease - maybe enough to cause the problem - is found on autopsy when the death is "drowning" with no other root cause found) this is no small matter.

As a person with quite a bit of decompression and hyperbaric medical training (I am a certified DMT.), and with many respected colleagues who are friends in the field, I take exception to your characterization of us as being "intentionally dishonest".

If you believe this, you are mistaken, sir. I am insulted by this, and I challenge you to provide proof of our so-called dishonesty (which I know you cannot do). If you cannot provide such proof, I call upon you to cease and desist making such ludicrous claims.

R. Davie
DMT

Genesis · 14th December 2005, 14:56

It doesn't mean the market will remain "smaller".

It means it will remain miniscule.

Not only is training "required", its unit-specific. So you can't even "change your brand" without buying it again and again and again.

As for "litigation happy" environments, do you really think that the sort of waiver you have to sign before you take any sort of class (or even get on a dive boat!) isn't sufficient all on its own? Obviously the shops, agencies and instructors think it is.

There is no paradigm shift and won't be until these issues are addressed.

Trying to sell someone on a $10,000 piece of hardware is difficult enough. When you tell them that you're going to play nanny on top of that and insist (not recommend - insist!) that they comply, and then, if that's not enough, that they can't have it for anywhere from three months to over a year after they place their order, 99.9% will simply shake their heads and walk off muttering about you being out of your gourd. A few will deduce (correctly) that this may also lead them to having a $10,000 paperweight for a good period of time if anything breaks while they own the unit down the road.

There's what - a couple hundred Megs out there? How many Inspos? A couple thousand?

That's not a "smaller" market, its an invisible market, and so long as manufacturers do things that push people away it will remain that way.

**nigelh** · 14th December 2005, 15:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

There are two things which confound an honest analysis:

All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits.
Nobody norms the risk to hours or events of exposure. We do for virtually every other risk-based activity, but not here.

Nothing to add but agreement.

On the first point I had a heart attack just after a diving trip and just before a rebreather course. I could so easily have been a "rebreather death" but it was a flattened cardiac artery that was at fault. My fault. I shouldn't let people drive over my chest. I was pleased to get my diving OK from a proper hyperbaric doctor afterwards. I feared they would say no way.

I didn't start doing 2hour+ dives until after I had a rebreather. My exposure went right up.

ROB DAVIE · 14th December 2005, 15:24

Karl,

As someone who is working to bring a "new" rebreather to the market, I can tell you that the business model that you evidently dislike will continue full-force.

As a pilot, I will simply note that you can, if you have the money, buy an airplane. Without the training, no one will let you drive it around.

With these rather complex pieces of diving equipment, we are NOT going to turn students loose without making sure that they have the training needed to give them a good chance to survive. If you don't like that set-up, you can build and dive your own, which you say you are doing. That is certainly OK with us in this community. We have quite a few DIY'ers here!

As for your diatribes about the OC diving community and LDS's, may I remind you that this is "Rebreather World", and we are, as a group, not much interested in the world we left behind!

***schford*** · 14th December 2005, 15:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon unless someone (

) shows up on the market with a unit that is both priced far more reasonably and stops treating these things like they're some kind of gold requiring the equivalent of a full-cave-class before you can "have one"

What you mean a Sport Kiss

Nad · 14th December 2005, 15:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE)

... this is "Rebreather World", and we are, as a group, not much interested in the world we left behind!

Yep. That's why we have to stop to compare the two world: beside the water and the agencies they are completly different.

Best,
Nad

Drmike · 14th December 2005, 16:24

To: Genesis

stop talking
start diving (Rebreather's)
then start talking

arm chair diver

***schford*** · 14th December 2005, 16:59

Genesis,

You have got to throttle back your rhetoric. Whilst we like lively and informed discussion, you are managing to alienate a large part of our community since you are talking the talk but, having never dived a Rebreather you haven't walked the walk as it were.

As a consequence some of your posts are inaccurate to the point of potentially making rebreather diving more dangerous, in my opinion.

How can you claim that people don't need training when you don't have hundreds and thousands of hours on RBs like some members, and those members think training is invaluable?

I am sure you have heard the phrase "learning from others mistakes!"

Now, I want to keep you as a member of the community so, please, could you just take a moment and consider what it is you are posting and post from a position of authority on the things you have done, not the things you have not?

Hopefully we will see those red blobs start to disappear.

Stuart

14th December 2005, 13:50	#21 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon unless someone ( ) shows up on the market with a unit that is both priced far more reasonably and stops treating these things like they're some kind of gold requiring the equivalent of a full-cave-class before you can "have one" - and then the same game gets played if you want to buy ANOTHER one! Never mind the insane delivery delays - again, I can buy dozens of makes of OC gear off the rack. There is not ONE Rebreather which currently is available in this fashion. Let me be clear here - while you can say "but OC has the same sort of requirements" you're being dishonest if you do - at least in the US. I can buy OC gear from Leisurepro or any one of a number of other online merchants, including a compressor, get in my boat, and go diving - with exactly zero formal qualification. I can also take a "basic" ow class for a couple hundred bucks and then do whatever I'd like. Everyone says "oh that's so horribly dangerous!" and yet the statistics say otherwise - about 100 people cack themselves diving every year. That's simply not that many. So long as both the hardware and the required class (not "recommended", "required" - and enforced by simply refusing to sell if you don't have it) are 5x that of open circuit with infinitely long leadtimes (compared to "buy it, take it home") this is and will remain a tiny niche market. Nobody - not even DiveRite - is seriously interested in tackling this issue. DiveRite looked like they might be originally, but as it turns out that was fluff rather than substance. Now, on to Heather's question... Before you look at OC .vs. CCR fatalities, you must first get the crap out of the raw numbers, or statistical analysis is pointless. We unfortunately are treated to various organizations and individuals who are all hyped about "pumping up" the fatality numbers, to the point that they are less-than-fully-honest about the true risk which COULD be determined - but is NEVER reported this way. (This problem exists for diving in general, and ALL of the various "subsets" of it fall victim to this tomfoolery) There are two things which confound an honest analysis: All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." *This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits.* We don't call someone who keels over from a coronary while playing GOLF a "golfing death", nor do we call someone who does so while waterskiing or hiking "skiing" or "hiking" deaths. We call them what they are - heart attacks. The sobering reality is that if you have a heart attack in (or on - e.g. fishing!) the water, you're screwed pretty much without exception, and contrary to the common conception that people "know" they're about to keel over, in 50% of MI cases the first SYMPTOM the person has IS the heart attack itself. We as divers not only tolerate this sort of abusive "pumping up" of the numbers, we reward it. When 30% of the deaths (by simple reading) prove out to be medical incidents and fully half might have been (e.g. significant coronary disease - maybe enough to cause the problem - is found on autopsy when the death is "drowning" with no other root cause found) this is no small matter. Nobody norms the risk to hours or events of exposure. We do for virtually every other risk-based activity, but not here. Why? Probably because if we did we wouldn't like what we saw, and the claims from various agencies and such that diving is "safe" (by whatever definition you care to use) would be shown to be absolute nonsense. The "average vacation diver" might do a couple of dives a year when they're at some resort in the Caribbean or the Keys - their "total exposure" might be quite literally an hour a year! I suspect that the average bottom time for most "divers" (across the entire certified population) is in the single-digit hours annually. This abuse allows people to say that "you're more likely to die driving to the boat than you are diving." Uh huh - the "big lie" is that you probably spend 700 times as many hours in a car annually than the average diver does underwater! Bottom line - diving in general is a hazardous activity, we choose to participate in it, and all we really want is to be left alone to pursue our passion in this regard. We do no good at all by skewing the risks in either direction. Only through full disclosure and honest reporting can people draw their own conclusions about risk and reward, and where that balance sits for them. Its also the only way we will ever be able to come up with an honest answer to Heather's question...... We're a long way away from being able to do that right now......
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 14:30	#22 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon.... Let me be clear here - while you can say "but OC has the same sort of requirements" you're being dishonest if you do - at least in the US. I can buy OC gear from Leisurepro or any one of a number of other online merchants, including a compressor, get in my boat, and go diving - with exactly zero formal qualification. I can also take a "basic" ow class for a couple hundred bucks and then do whatever I'd like. Everyone says "oh that's so horribly dangerous!" and yet the statistics say otherwise - about 100 people cack themselves diving every year. That's simply not that many. So long as both the hardware and the required class (not "recommended", "required" - and enforced by simply refusing to sell if you don't have it) are 5x that of open circuit with infinitely long leadtimes (compared to "buy it, take it home") this is and will remain a tiny niche market. Nobody - not even DiveRite - is seriously interested in tackling this issue. DiveRite looked like they might be originally, but as it turns out that was fluff rather than substance. The paradigm shift is in process. It is slow, but it is there. Most of us do not say that OC has much the same requirements because we have been at this for quite some time now, and are fully aware of the differences. Diving this equipment is more involved, and requires more training. No one in his or her right mind is going to hand out one of these machines, even for mass quantities of wonga, to people who don't get the training (ESPECIALLY not in litigation crazy Estados Unidos)!! If that means the market remains smaller over-all, so be it. __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 14:41	#23 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." *This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits.* We don't call someone who keels over from a coronary while playing GOLF a "golfing death", nor do we call someone who does so while waterskiing or hiking "skiing" or "hiking" deaths. We call them what they are - heart attacks. The sobering reality is that if you have a heart attack in (or on - e.g. fishing!) the water, you're screwed pretty much without exception, and contrary to the common conception that people "know" they're about to keel over, in 50% of MI cases the first SYMPTOM the person has IS the heart attack itself. We as divers not only tolerate this sort of abusive "pumping up" of the numbers, we reward it. When 30% of the deaths (by simple reading) prove out to be medical incidents and fully half might have been (e.g. significant coronary disease - maybe enough to cause the problem - is found on autopsy when the death is "drowning" with no other root cause found) this is no small matter. As a person with quite a bit of decompression and hyperbaric medical training (I am a certified DMT.), and with many respected colleagues who are friends in the field, I take exception to your characterization of us as being "intentionally dishonest". If you believe this, you are mistaken, sir. I am insulted by this, and I challenge you to provide proof of our so-called dishonesty (which I know you cannot do). If you cannot provide such proof, I call upon you to cease and desist making such ludicrous claims. R. Davie DMT __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 14:56	#24 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,394	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities It doesn't mean the market will remain "smaller". It means it will remain miniscule. Not only is training "required", its unit-specific. So you can't even "change your brand" without buying it again and again and again. As for "litigation happy" environments, do you really think that the sort of waiver you have to sign before you take any sort of class (or even get on a dive boat!) isn't sufficient all on its own? Obviously the shops, agencies and instructors think it is. There is no paradigm shift and won't be until these issues are addressed. Trying to sell someone on a $10,000 piece of hardware is difficult enough. When you tell them that you're going to play nanny on top of that and insist (not recommend - insist!) that they comply, and then, if that's not enough, that they can't have it for anywhere from three months to over a year after they place their order, 99.9% will simply shake their heads and walk off muttering about you being out of your gourd. A few will deduce (correctly) that this may also lead them to having a $10,000 paperweight for a good period of time if anything breaks while they own the unit down the road. There's what - a couple hundred Megs out there? How many Inspos? A couple thousand? That's not a "smaller" market, its an invisible market, and so long as manufacturers do things that push people away it will remain that way. Last edited by ROB DAVIE : 14th December 2005 at 16:55. Reason: Material about LDS's not central to thread issue.
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 15:01	#25 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 825	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) There are two things which confound an honest analysis: All the "reporting agencies" (DAN, etc) include medical causes of death in with "diving deaths." This is singularly and intentionally dishonest and is done NOWHERE ELSE in recreational pursuits. Nobody norms the risk to hours or events of exposure. We do for virtually every other risk-based activity, but not here. Nothing to add but agreement. On the first point I had a heart attack just after a diving trip and just before a rebreather course. I could so easily have been a "rebreather death" but it was a flattened cardiac artery that was at fault. My fault. I shouldn't let people drive over my chest. I was pleased to get my diving OK from a proper hyperbaric doctor afterwards. I feared they would say no way. I didn't start doing 2hour+ dives until after I had a rebreather. My exposure went right up. __________________ nigelh
(Online)

14th December 2005, 15:24	#26 (permalink)
ROB DAVIE Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: HOUSTON, REPUBLIC OF TEJAS Posts: 1,120	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Karl, As someone who is working to bring a "new" rebreather to the market, I can tell you that the business model that you evidently dislike will continue full-force. As a pilot, I will simply note that you can, if you have the money, buy an airplane. Without the training, no one will let you drive it around. With these rather complex pieces of diving equipment, we are NOT going to turn students loose without making sure that they have the training needed to give them a good chance to survive. If you don't like that set-up, you can build and dive your own, which you say you are doing. That is certainly OK with us in this community. We have quite a few DIY'ers here! As for your diatribes about the OC diving community and LDS's, may I remind you that this is "Rebreather World", and we are, as a group, not much interested in the world we left behind! __________________ [SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 15:37	#27 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,674	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) First, I don't think the "coming paradigm shift" is going to happen any time soon unless someone ( ) shows up on the market with a unit that is both priced far more reasonably and stops treating these things like they're some kind of gold requiring the equivalent of a full-cave-class before you can "have one" What you mean a Sport Kiss __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 15:56	#28 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 960	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Quote: (Originally Posted by ROB DAVIE) ... this is "Rebreather World", and we are, as a group, not much interested in the world we left behind! Yep. That's why we have to stop to compare the two world: beside the water and the agencies they are completly different. Best, Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 16:24	#29 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities To: Genesis stop talking start diving (Rebreather's) then start talking arm chair diver __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by ROB DAVIE : 14th December 2005 at 16:48.
(Offline)

14th December 2005, 16:59	#30 (permalink)
*schford* Despotic Overlord Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 3,674	Re: eCCR vs. OC fatalities Genesis, You have got to throttle back your rhetoric. Whilst we like lively and informed discussion, you are managing to alienate a large part of our community since you are talking the talk but, having never dived a Rebreather you haven't walked the walk as it were. As a consequence some of your posts are inaccurate to the point of potentially making rebreather diving more dangerous, in my opinion. How can you claim that people don't need training when you don't have hundreds and thousands of hours on RBs like some members, and those members think training is invaluable? I am sure you have heard the phrase "learning from others mistakes!" Now, I want to keep you as a member of the community so, please, could you just take a moment and consider what it is you are posting and post from a position of authority on the things you have done, not the things you have not? Hopefully we will see those red blobs start to disappear. Stuart __________________ Bailout and Kit Management account for Murphy's Law The only bad question is one you did not ask and later wish you had. Use of Rebreather World is subject to the Rebreather World Terms & Conditions of Use Last edited by ROB DAVIE : 14th December 2005 at 18:30.
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