CCR VS. OC as first class

RonMicjan

there are about 200 megs running around out there now. that seems right cause I own 2 sport kisses and 1.5 megs, so the ratio is about the same
course if that holds across the board, I need to acquire 20 or so ybod"s, shoot, have to knock over a few 7-11's

as far as OW on CCR, I think its do-able, but the instructor would have to qualify the student that much more, its not just a matter of having the 10 g's, but the skill and tenacity to do the whole thing. you dont have to learn to ride a hot air balloon before you do your fixed wing, nor do you have to do fixed wing fore you take rotary wing lessons (its cheaper that way though) and there is not a lot of cross over skills (for the actual flying), similar to OC-CCR. then again, flying is not a mainstream sport either.

Someone mentioned the tendency for divers to exceed their training and we all know it happens, its not against the law to take an OW OC course and then dive tomorrow to 300 fsw, just stupid. Darwin was right.

The overall problem I see for the Rebreather industry for the future is to find out why divers die on RB's. lately we have seen some VERY experienced folks check out permanently on CCR and we really dont know why. There is no forensic expert available to examine the units (even if the unit/person is found), there is no "black box" that records the entire set of dive stats, let alone the divers vital signs and compare the two, all we seem to be able to do is call it a drowning, which is eventually is. I once read a saying that "in the end, all forms of death can be considered heart failure" and its true, whether it a decapitation, or freezing, or drowning, life ends when the pump quits. So calling it a drowning is worthless to us who may want to learn something from it.
If we, as an industry, dont do something to prevent our brightest and best, let alone the mainstream, CCR divers from perishing on our favorite toys, then at some point the governments are going to do it for us with overall bans. If we build idiot proof CCR's then idiots are going to buy them, and find even more ingenious ways to die.

the only solution to all of this is training, which IMHO should include recurrent training, in aviation if you dont keep up flying on a regular basis, you lose your ticket and have to re qualify. If a CCR diver finishes a class and only dives a few times a year, they are ripe to become a statistic. I am against any kind of legislation to force safety, whether its seat belts, motorcycle helmets, or mandentory certification to dive. I feel that I am best equipped to decide if I want to wear a seat belt etc, darwin in action right? I do wear my helmet on my M/C and mostly wear my seat belt, but I dont want someone to tell me I have to. I am really arguing both sides of the same point here and just thinking out loud for the most part.
Another solution is technology based, why not a device to monitor the vitals of the diver along with real time recording of whats going on in the loop, this way we can see, without a doubt, that the diver may have died before the loop went bad (MCI, Stroke etc), or see the loop had problems which the diver did not address. then we have concrete empirical evidence as to who screwed up and then address that with better technology, or better training.

If you look at the FAA's Code of Federal Regulations for aviation, it is huge. Almost every rule in that book was written after someone died, to try and prevent the next fatality. its this kind of thinking and Bureaucracy (had to look that spelling up) that leads to the result that currently built airplane piston engines are still using technology from the 1900's (magneto's and carburetors) because manufacturers cannot afford the massive intensive testing the FAA requires of a new product before you can install it on a mass produced airplane. This is also why a new cessna is $152,000 but you can buy an experimental RV kit and fly it for 40k and its a much better airplane.

The experimental side of aviation is alive and well, just like the Rebreather homebuilders, these are the folks you really dont have to worry about, like Phi said, its the "wanna be likes" that we have to worry about. I ran into a guy during a dive trip who was constantly working on his YBOD, complaining about what a POS it was, then a year later I saw him taking MEG training and making the same complaints, he destroyed 4 O rings in 2 days in the same place on the RB cause he would not pay attention to what he was doing and was so ham fisted that he would have trouble using play dough without breaking it (look out Mr Bill!) Then I find out he only dives 3 or 4 times a year, if that. But he wants to be a CCR Cave diver, cause its cool to be able to flash the card. I wouldnt step into a puddle with him as my buddy. and yes, he was certified as a CCR cave diver!! On the dive trip he was voted by all "most likely to die diving" The real pisser about that is Penny was on that trip, and this yahoo is still around being an a**. I can only assume his meg sits on a shelf next to his framed CCR Cave cert and thats the only reason he is still breathing.

I didn't really think I was going to get that deep on this subject, but there it is. I wrote enough there to be able to piss off most everyone, so I will get out the flame proof suit and stand by... My .02 peso's

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ROB DAVIE

Actually, Ron, I don't think you'll need a flame-proof suit. Most of what you say has been recognized by folks in the rebreather end of the business for some time.

I have an interesting perspective on this, since I am a professional airline pilot, a police recovery diver, and a DMT.

I know that your remarks about the FAA (We're only here to help you!) are correct. Likewise your view of the home-build crowd. (My personal project will be a Zenair 801.)

The problem with the discovery of the true cause of death in diving accidents is the way the accident enters into the system.

In the case of our equipment, the loop is almost always compromised, whether the death is machine-caused or results from a physiological problem. So one area of investigation is short-stopped even if we recover the gear.

If the body is recovered, (and that sometimes is a big if...), certain conditions such as abnormally low blood oxygen saturation will no longer be able to be determined accurately. Other indications of cause and time of death will be inaccurate, due to the effects of the environment.

The sytem demands that the ME or the coroner pronounce a cause of death, however, and lacking all else, the choice is usually "accidental death due to---you guessed it---drowning." That, after all, is the ultimate mechanism.

You are correct in that better "black box" (in this case, they really would be black) logging would give us more information. In the case of physiological monitoring, chest electrodes to read heart function would not work, and I don't believe the majority of us would go for the anal-probe sensor!

It is a tough situation all of the way around. Cases like Penny's, given the type of diver that she was reported to be, versus the maroon you are describing, are the hardest for all of us to think about, much less comprehend.

Rob

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[SIZE=2]"CC Rebreathers will become a viable part of tech diving [U]WHEN PIGS FLY[/U]!!"--GI3[/SIZE]

apitkin

Ron, you've hit the nail on the head. Excellent post.

We need to know why these experienced divers died. We have no means of finding out. This is our problem.

As has been said before, perhaps in some cases experience on a Rebreather goes along with a tendency to cut corners or even exceed the capabilities of the unit, on the basis that "I did it before, and I was fine. No problem."

You do need a little luck to survive every dive. The better prepared you are the less luck you need.

Andy

decoweenie

Does that mean you will need some luck no matter how well prepared you are ?

If that's true, then it is a very scary thought since I rather not relying on luck for my survival...

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"...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..."

- Rebreather World PM

Genesis

Yes. Among other things deco is a theory; people can and DO get bent following "the rules" exactly, and the cause is not always determinable.

Swim in the sea? There are things there that can eat you. They may not often do so, but they can. It is by luck to some degree that the hammerhead shark is not particularly interested in diver for lunch and instead prefers the grouper this afternoon....

There is a saying - "chance favors the prepared mind." Its true, but the operative word is favors.....

deepnark

hi
I've been diving oc for hundreds of years and have this year gone onto ccr ,the biggest problem i found was forgetting all the oc diving i had done over the years and starting again with ccr .So if you could go straight to ccr from the word go the oc habits would not have to be forgotten .
ccr is the way of the futre, just as scuba was the way of the futre back when jack was king .#
If price was is the issue ,think how much you spent on your shinny new oc gear when you started ,and compare that to how much a second hand classic inspiration will cost .I rest my case .

here endeth the leason for today

Ray

Mdemon

I think you would get an inexperienced, competant CCR diver.

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"small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!"

The WRONG Attitude will get you killed.

"Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"