CCR VS. OC as first class

Drmike · 6th December 2005, 23:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

There are many instances where a CCR is IMHO safer than OC.

Sure - but very shallow OW non deco reef dives (dives that a typical OW student would be doing) is not one of those instances - IMO.

You really should hurry up and dive a CCR you would likely refine, if not completely change, many of your currently held views

Drmike · 7th December 2005, 00:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

this year's dual fatality at Eagle's Nest likely would not have happened had they been on CCRs. The silt-out would have, but with 3 hours to get your act together and find an exit, its not a big deal. With a 20-minute "countdown to death" clock ticking, its an entirely different matter.

.

Yes CCR keeps the immediate panic at bay and that is what will likely get you out, but in my experience there is a limit to how much time (mentally) you will be able to search before going loopy-tunes.

In my eye opening experience I would say most people could probably do 30 mins searching in zero viz lost line. I wouldnt want to say for sure if I could do much more. It would take a LOT of mind control and a very cool head.

I suspect it would take a very unusual mind to be able to search for 'hours' in zero vis.

shell-back · 7th December 2005, 19:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Sorry but Im going to rant for a bit

I personally think this is a really crazy idea.

Most (all?) the Rebreather deaths so far have been put down to user error. In some cases those users were highly experienced OC and CC divers - and you want to lower the basic experience level of incoming RB divers?

The traditional OC path to Rebreather diving currently would ensure at least some experience, some level of comfort in the water, some well engrained basic skills and the development of basic life supporting instinctive reactions.

The basic skills and habits, that havent yet become instinctive to the new OW diver, is usually the first thing they forget when the shit hits the fan. We had a OW diver recently die around here because he ran out if gas and forgot that he could orally inflate his wing on the surface. He made it to the surface fine but then forgot he could orally inflate sank and drowned.

IMO there is enough stuff to learn and new instincts to develop diving an Rebreather without having to learn and develop the basics of diving and in water comfort at the same time.

When the shit hits the fan on Rebreather the bail out is to OC, so some basic OC skills and experience would certainly be advantageous.

The argument that a OC diver has to unlearn great stacks of habits when he moves to Rebreather is IMO nonsense. What OC 'bad habits' do you really think need to be re-learnt?? Even if there are some I am sure its far easier to un-learn one or two habits than it is to learn the absolute basic whilst diving a complicated bit of kit like a Rb

Everyone is entitled to their opinion - but mine is that this is one crazy idea that will NOT result in less deaths OR better Rebreather divers.

The only way I could see this working would be if the course was in reality not just an OW course done on an Rebreather (as the title of the thread suggests) but in fact was some hybrid course combining elements of OC OW, OC Nitrox and then RB diving. The course would have to be much longer than a normal OW course naturally and would demand a lot in terms of time, comitment and money from the student. Im sure such a course could be created - but I bet they will spend a lot of time at the start on OC - for all the reasons Ive given above.

- Rant over.

[can you tell its been a week since I got wet?

]

I believe the very basis for your disagreement is negated by your own admission that the Rebreather deaths so far have been user error " by highly experinced OC and CCR divers. fact or fiction this does not serve as a fair argument that a traditional path is best, its just what we have today.

At this stage in the game I would bet that the majority of the members discribe themsevles as highly experinced and a large percent are homebuilders/modify master with little if any Traditional training on that unit. Intersting enough does any one know of any homebuilds claiming the life of there maker.

the basic skills and habits of any ccr diver new or OC diver are very different I admit.
They are basic skills that are taught in the stated course and should be mastered before certification end of story. Was the highly experinced OC diver or CCR diver given a misconceived nod of confidence before the course was facilitated resulting in the "user error", believed to have been already engrained in the "highly experinced" student.?
I often enjoy reading your rants

this time I think you are of the mark a little, and is it me or are you fixated on death

peace

Genesis · 7th December 2005, 20:37

There's another interesting point that relates to this...

It appears (unless I've missed it) that nobody has cack'd themselves on a KISS yet.

Yet - this is the only unit which was available commercially that required no formal training for purchase.

Gordon recently changed this with the advent of the "Sport" model, and when I inquired as to the reason the answer I got back was that the agencies refused to allow a class to be taught for it under their banner unless Jetsam changed their policies and refused to sell the unit without the class.

That raised my eyebrows. In most areas of business this is called an illegal tying arrangement (in the US anyway), especially when it is persistent across all makers of a given sort or type of device (its strong evidence of a per-se violation of anti-trust laws in the United States.) Of course Jetsam is not a US company....

More to the point, the KISS (and its cousins among the homebuilders) have one unique feature above all others - if you are complacent you will die for sure.

The fact that you MUST mash that button in order to live, and watch the gauge so you know how often to mash it, means that you are constantly aware of (you're forced to be!) the PO2 in the loop. This makes it right hard to end up either hypoxic or hyperoxic by accident.

This is not true for an eCCR. Especially one that fails rarely (or, in your experience, never.) You can play "glance at the blinkenlight once in a while", trusting the computer to take care of it - it appears that at least a few people have expired doing exactly that.

Yes, there are more YBODs out there than anything else. But how many more Megs are out there than KISS's - or is it the other way around? I don't know the answer to that, but Gordon claims well north of 100 of the classics delivered, and I suspect the Sport has been a smashing success. Are there more KISSes out there than Megs? Dive hours on each? Unknown, but here's the rub - nobody's offed themselves on that particular mCCR yet....

Zero's a big number, and of course the KISS' day will come, but IMHO it puts the lie to the idea that its radically unreasonable - or unsafe - to teach people on a CCR from the outset - especially when you could, until recently, buy a factory-made CCR and dive it with zero formal training.

bmattson · 7th December 2005, 22:36

Training is Fun. Why would anyone want to short change themselves. I've learned in every single class I have taken. I think any motivated person can teach themselves to master anything from being a pilot to being a doctor, but the price for poor self teaching is high. I think just as pilot generally starts flying single engine and moves to multi-engine, so should a scuba diver learn to dive simply and move to ever more complex systems. I sure some divers could jump into full trimix eccr and excel at it, but what is the litmus test for this. I just know I would not want to take the liabilty for this as the instructor (not just finacial).

Drmike · 7th December 2005, 23:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back)

I believe the very basis for your disagreement is negated by your own admission that the Rebreather deaths so far have been user error " by highly experinced OC and CCR divers. fact or fiction this does not serve as a fair argument that a traditional path is best, its just what we have today.

At this stage in the game I would bet that the majority of the members discribe themsevles as highly experinced and a large percent are homebuilders/modify master with little if any Traditional training on that unit. Intersting enough does any one know of any homebuilds claiming the life of there maker.

the basic skills and habits of any ccr diver new or OC diver are very different I admit.
They are basic skills that are taught in the stated course and should be mastered before certification end of story. Was the highly experinced OC diver or CCR diver given a misconceived nod of confidence before the course was facilitated resulting in the "user error", believed to have been already engrained in the "highly experinced" student.?
I often enjoy reading your rants

this time I think you are of the mark a little, and is it me or are you fixated on death

peace

well i guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

btw what ccr do you dive? what was your training path to ccr?

shell-back · 8th December 2005, 00:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

well i guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

btw what ccr do you dive? what was your training path to ccr?

agreed, although I find what CCR I dive and my training path
Not relevant in the post I will proceed cause I can see it has a deeper some meaning to you.

I dive a shop-built "KISS" you would like it.

SCR DIVER 1996 and with out droping the name the instructor/author
I learned much more about the unit, outside of class on my own. as you probly have with your respective unit.

As stated in my post and the fact that I'm a instructor trainer means up to this date I have followed the traditional path with exception to My OWN unit.
I do not teach on the shell-back and for obvious reasons recommend students go with the Jetsam products.

Deep Thought · 8th December 2005, 02:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back)

This is what I suggest:

Train a new student on a rebreather from the start. No Open water OC diver cert needed. Allow the current Rebreather manufactures and instructors to make the standards and educate the "industry" on what rebreather are all about.

in short sleave terms , get our **** together and promote.

This is a fine idea and nothing revolutionary about the concept that I can see? As JP Jones post IANTD already allows this.

Every rebreather that I train students on has open circuit bailout as a standard drill, so in regards to teaching a diver strictly on a rebreathers don’t forget the aspect of o.c. is a requirement. In order to understand bailout to open circuit would necessitate the knowledge of breathing from a scuba and quantity of gas required. The course would need to be modified to suit the individual.

Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back)

I know its sounds like a pipe dream, then again 15 years ago Technical diving was taboo as Rebreather's are today.

Just to be safe, I took a ride in my time machine and went back to the days when automobiles were introduced, then the first airplanes to see if there was any controversy and sure enough it seems that humans tend to reject changes and new ideas.

The trip into the future was also quite interesting, and we are on the right tract with these rebreathers. They have changed a lot, and no they are not any cheaper in the future, but only the cool divers have them. There are a few divers that still complain about the price and they are still diving open circuit.

Unfortunately I really can’t spoil the story and tell everyone exactly what happens but you will be pleased.

In the few short years from when the first recreational SCR was available to the mass market, we now have how many fully closed circuit rebreathers 5 -10??? This concept is not going to sit still, and there will be a slump when manufactures exceed the demand that in my opinion is here yet. Portholes like Rebreather World are an excellent way to share information, but in order for the market to expand to its potential we need to have constructive ideas to standardize training for the safety of the future rebreathers divers. So keep the thinking free and support discussion.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Sorry but Im going to rant for a bit

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

The only way I could see this working would be if the course was in reality not just an OW course done on an Rebreather (as the title of the thread suggests) but in fact was some hybrid course combining elements of OC OW, OC Nitrox and then RB diving. The course would have to be much longer than a normal OW course naturally and would demand a lot in terms of time, comitment and money from the student. Im sure such a course could be created - but I bet they will spend a lot of time at the start on OC - for all the reasons Ive given above.

- Rant over.

[can you tell its been a week since I got wet? ]

First Mike - Get Wet! And I mean that in the best possible sense. I just returned from the N. Florida caves and had a blast. Enjoyed your visit, thanks for stopping in, and hope to see you again soon.

The caves taught me one valuable lesson; using a rebreathers is cheating! Not sure how you feel after your recent cave course, but considering my whimpy o.c. cave experience and the recent penetrations that I made on CCR last week – wow! If I had not already validated my bail-out to get out of the cave I would say it was complete lunacy. I consider myself a reasonable proficient diver, but humbly I would say it would take me years to develop the penetration skills of o.c. what I can now do on CCR. Cheating!

Years past I used to teach O.C. trimix students and now I dread the idea of lugging large cylinders around and encourage deep divers to embrace the concept of CCR. Not too many years ago this would have been radical thinking, and now training has evolved to suit divers who have no O.C. trimix experience to go straight to CCR trimix….

I agree that a hybrid course, or something to that nature is what is needed as the future is rolling toward us and we cant stop it. The idea is to train people correctly on the equipment that is available, and I think we need to seriously sit down and re-think future training needs.

I'm just adding the "Beating A Dead Horse" 'cause it looks cool.

ron

Genesis · 8th December 2005, 02:36

I personally believe there is a crossover between OC and CCR diving in terms of safety that is a LOT closer to the surface (or penetration distance) than many people think.

The "you're dead in 20 minutes" problem is very real on OC, and it contributes tremendously to the panic potential in any situation. Gas supply is ALWAYS in the back of your mind on OC dives, and when the dragon shows up its a BIG part of where he gets his fire from......

Taking the fire out of the dragon's breath makes him much easier to subdue or slay, as the occasion demands.....

decoweenie · 8th December 2005, 07:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis)

Yet - this is the only unit which was available commercially that required no formal training for purchase.

Gordon recently changed this with the advent of the "Sport" model.

FYI, the policy was changed before the introduction of the Sport-KISS. The no-training policy was only for the first X (can't remember the exact number) of Classic-KISS units.

I will share an observation from the perpective of a KISS user who owned the Classic-KISS s/n: 7 (just meant that I have seen a lot of the changes)...

IMHO, there is a difference between the average KISS owners from 4 years ago to the present KISS owners.

The present KISS owners are more "average" divers who expect to buy a piece of equipment that function perfectly out of the box (to be expected) and not willing/capable of doing minor repairs/maintenance on the unit. They whine a lot about the different problems, and some of the problems were actually caused from not knowing which end of the screwdriver to hold (to quote Gordon).

In contract, the older KISS owners are more hands-on group with a lot of initiative. For example, the small orifice idea to dive deeper and the improved SS case for the Classic-KISS were developed by a group in UK. Some of the guys from this same group also developed a permanent back-lit display for the original PO2 displays before Jetsam introduced their version.

Looking at the archive of the KISS list will show such observation. Almost none of the early group ever post on the KISS list anymore for the same reason that I see some degradable is starting to erode some threads on here as well - people who doesn't have the expereince/knowledge are offering too much of their uninformed opinion.

To get back to my original point, IMHO, in general it is not a good idea to expect the latter group of divers to dive the unit safely without formal training. Especially the user expectation now is to strap the unit on and dive deep without a lot of experience.

I don't know how many Megs are out there, but I am guessing that the combined number of Classic- and Sport-KISS units is easily higher at around 300 (?)

6th December 2005, 23:52	#21 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) There are many instances where a CCR is IMHO safer than OC. Sure - but very shallow OW non deco reef dives (dives that a typical OW student would be doing) is not one of those instances - IMO. You really should hurry up and dive a CCR you would likely refine, if not completely change, many of your currently held views __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 6th December 2005 at 23:55.
(Offline)

7th December 2005, 00:10	#22 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) this year's dual fatality at Eagle's Nest likely would not have happened had they been on CCRs. The silt-out would have, but with 3 hours to get your act together and find an exit, its not a big deal. With a 20-minute "countdown to death" clock ticking, its an entirely different matter. . Yes CCR keeps the immediate panic at bay and that is what will likely get you out, but in my experience there is a limit to how much time (mentally) you will be able to search before going loopy-tunes. In my eye opening experience I would say most people could probably do 30 mins searching in zero viz lost line. I wouldnt want to say for sure if I could do much more. It would take a LOT of mind control and a very cool head. I suspect it would take a very unusual mind to be able to search for 'hours' in zero vis. __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

7th December 2005, 19:36	#23 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 475	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Sorry but Im going to rant for a bit I personally think this is a really crazy idea. Most (all?) the Rebreather deaths so far have been put down to user error. In some cases those users were highly experienced OC and CC divers - and you want to lower the basic experience level of incoming RB divers? The traditional OC path to Rebreather diving currently would ensure at least some experience, some level of comfort in the water, some well engrained basic skills and the development of basic life supporting instinctive reactions. The basic skills and habits, that havent yet become instinctive to the new OW diver, is usually the first thing they forget when the shit hits the fan. We had a OW diver recently die around here because he ran out if gas and forgot that he could orally inflate his wing on the surface. He made it to the surface fine but then forgot he could orally inflate sank and drowned. IMO there is enough stuff to learn and new instincts to develop diving an Rebreather without having to learn and develop the basics of diving and in water comfort at the same time. When the shit hits the fan on Rebreather the bail out is to OC, so some basic OC skills and experience would certainly be advantageous. The argument that a OC diver has to unlearn great stacks of habits when he moves to Rebreather is IMO nonsense. What OC 'bad habits' do you really think need to be re-learnt?? Even if there are some I am sure its far easier to un-learn one or two habits than it is to learn the absolute basic whilst diving a complicated bit of kit like a Rb Everyone is entitled to their opinion - but mine is that this is one crazy idea that will NOT result in less deaths OR better Rebreather divers. The only way I could see this working would be if the course was in reality not just an OW course done on an Rebreather (as the title of the thread suggests) but in fact was some hybrid course combining elements of OC OW, OC Nitrox and then RB diving. The course would have to be much longer than a normal OW course naturally and would demand a lot in terms of time, comitment and money from the student. Im sure such a course could be created - but I bet they will spend a lot of time at the start on OC - for all the reasons Ive given above. - Rant over. [can you tell its been a week since I got wet? ] I believe the very basis for your disagreement is negated by your own admission that the Rebreather deaths so far have been user error " by highly experinced OC and CCR divers. fact or fiction this does not serve as a fair argument that a traditional path is best, its just what we have today. At this stage in the game I would bet that the majority of the members discribe themsevles as highly experinced and a large percent are homebuilders/modify master with little if any Traditional training on that unit. Intersting enough does any one know of any homebuilds claiming the life of there maker. the basic skills and habits of any ccr diver new or OC diver are very different I admit. They are basic skills that are taught in the stated course and should be mastered before certification end of story. Was the highly experinced OC diver or CCR diver given a misconceived nod of confidence before the course was facilitated resulting in the "user error", believed to have been already engrained in the "highly experinced" student.? I often enjoy reading your rants this time I think you are of the mark a little, and is it me or are you fixated on death peace
(Offline)

7th December 2005, 20:37	#24 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class There's another interesting point that relates to this... It appears (unless I've missed it) that nobody has cack'd themselves on a KISS yet. Yet - this is the only unit which was available commercially that required no formal training for purchase. Gordon recently changed this with the advent of the "Sport" model, and when I inquired as to the reason the answer I got back was that the agencies refused to allow a class to be taught for it under their banner *unless Jetsam changed their policies and refused to sell the unit without the class.* That raised my eyebrows. In most areas of business this is called an illegal tying arrangement (in the US anyway), especially when it is persistent across all makers of a given sort or type of device (its strong evidence of a per-se violation of anti-trust laws in the United States.) Of course Jetsam is not a US company.... More to the point, the KISS (and its cousins among the homebuilders) have one unique feature above all others - if you are complacent you will die for sure. The fact that you MUST mash that button in order to live, and watch the gauge so you know how often to mash it, means that you are constantly aware of (you're forced to be!) the PO2 in the loop. This makes it right hard to end up either hypoxic or hyperoxic by accident. This is not true for an eCCR. Especially one that fails rarely (or, in your experience, never.) You can play "glance at the blinkenlight once in a while", trusting the computer to take care of it - it appears that at least a few people have expired doing exactly that. Yes, there are more YBODs out there than anything else. But how many more Megs are out there than KISS's - or is it the other way around? I don't know the answer to that, but Gordon claims well north of 100 of the classics delivered, and I suspect the Sport has been a smashing success. Are there more KISSes out there than Megs? Dive hours on each? Unknown, but here's the rub - nobody's offed themselves on that particular mCCR yet.... Zero's a big number, and of course the KISS' day will come, but IMHO it puts the lie to the idea that its radically unreasonable - or unsafe - to teach people on a CCR from the outset - especially when you could, until recently, buy a factory-made CCR and dive it with zero formal training.
(Offline)

7th December 2005, 22:36	#25 (permalink)
bmattson New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: USA Posts: 21	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Training is Fun. Why would anyone want to short change themselves. I've learned in every single class I have taken. I think any motivated person can teach themselves to master anything from being a pilot to being a doctor, but the price for poor self teaching is high. I think just as pilot generally starts flying single engine and moves to multi-engine, so should a scuba diver learn to dive simply and move to ever more complex systems. I sure some divers could jump into full trimix eccr and excel at it, but what is the litmus test for this. I just know I would not want to take the liabilty for this as the instructor (not just finacial).
(Offline)

7th December 2005, 23:02	#26 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back) I believe the very basis for your disagreement is negated by your own admission that the Rebreather deaths so far have been user error " by highly experinced OC and CCR divers. fact or fiction this does not serve as a fair argument that a traditional path is best, its just what we have today. At this stage in the game I would bet that the majority of the members discribe themsevles as highly experinced and a large percent are homebuilders/modify master with little if any Traditional training on that unit. Intersting enough does any one know of any homebuilds claiming the life of there maker. the basic skills and habits of any ccr diver new or OC diver are very different I admit. They are basic skills that are taught in the stated course and should be mastered before certification end of story. Was the highly experinced OC diver or CCR diver given a misconceived nod of confidence before the course was facilitated resulting in the "user error", believed to have been already engrained in the "highly experinced" student.? I often enjoy reading your rants this time I think you are of the mark a little, and is it me or are you fixated on death peace well i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. btw what ccr do you dive? what was your training path to ccr? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

8th December 2005, 00:33	#27 (permalink)
shell-back I do all my own stunts Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Ray Azimuth Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: middle of US Posts: 475	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) well i guess we will just have to agree to disagree. btw what ccr do you dive? what was your training path to ccr? agreed, although I find what CCR I dive and my training path Not relevant in the post I will proceed cause I can see it has a deeper some meaning to you. I dive a shop-built "KISS" you would like it. SCR DIVER 1996 and with out droping the name the instructor/author I learned much more about the unit, outside of class on my own. as you probly have with your respective unit. As stated in my post and the fact that I'm a instructor trainer means up to this date I have followed the traditional path with exception to My OWN unit. I do not teach on the shell-back and for obvious reasons recommend students go with the Jetsam products.
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8th December 2005, 02:26	#28 (permalink)
Deep Thought Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Optima Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Great Lakes Posts: 190	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back) This is what I suggest: Train a new student on a rebreather from the start. No Open water OC diver cert needed. Allow the current Rebreather manufactures and instructors to make the standards and educate the "industry" on what rebreather are all about. in short sleave terms , get our ** together and promote. This is a fine idea and nothing revolutionary about the concept that I can see? As JP Jones post IANTD already allows this. Every rebreather that I train students on has open circuit bailout as a standard drill, so in regards to teaching a diver strictly on a rebreathers don’t forget the aspect of o.c. is a requirement. In order to understand bailout to open circuit would necessitate the knowledge of breathing from a scuba and quantity of gas required. The course would need to be modified to suit the individual. Quote: (Originally Posted by shell-back) I know its sounds like a pipe dream, then again 15 years ago Technical diving was taboo as Rebreather's are today. Just to be safe, I took a ride in my time machine and went back to the days when automobiles were introduced, then the first airplanes to see if there was any controversy and sure enough it seems that humans tend to reject changes and new ideas. The trip into the future was also quite interesting, and we are on the right tract with these rebreathers. They have changed a lot, and no they are not any cheaper in the future, but only the cool divers have them. There are a few divers that still complain about the price and they are still diving open circuit. Unfortunately I really can’t spoil the story and tell everyone exactly what happens but you will be pleased. In the few short years from when the first recreational SCR was available to the mass market, we now have how many fully closed circuit rebreathers 5 -10??? This concept is not going to sit still, and there will be a slump when manufactures exceed the demand that in my opinion is here yet. Portholes like Rebreather World are an excellent way to share information, but in order for the market to expand to its potential we need to have constructive ideas to standardize training for the safety of the future rebreathers divers. So keep the thinking free and support discussion. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Sorry but Im going to rant for a bit Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike*) The only way I could see this working would be if the course was in reality not just an OW course done on an Rebreather (as the title of the thread suggests) but in fact was some hybrid course combining elements of OC OW, OC Nitrox and then RB diving. The course would have to be much longer than a normal OW course naturally and would demand a lot in terms of time, comitment and money from the student. Im sure such a course could be created - but I bet they will spend a lot of time at the start on OC - for all the reasons Ive given above. - Rant over. [can you tell its been a week since I got wet? ] First Mike - Get Wet! And I mean that in the best possible sense. I just returned from the N. Florida caves and had a blast. Enjoyed your visit, thanks for stopping in, and hope to see you again soon. The caves taught me one valuable lesson; using a rebreathers is cheating! Not sure how you feel after your recent cave course, but considering my whimpy o.c. cave experience and the recent penetrations that I made on CCR last week – wow! If I had not already validated my bail-out to get out of the cave I would say it was complete lunacy. I consider myself a reasonable proficient diver, but humbly I would say it would take me years to develop the penetration skills of o.c. what I can now do on CCR. Cheating! Years past I used to teach O.C. trimix students and now I dread the idea of lugging large cylinders around and encourage deep divers to embrace the concept of CCR. Not too many years ago this would have been radical thinking, and now training has evolved to suit divers who have no O.C. trimix experience to go straight to CCR trimix…. I agree that a hybrid course, or something to that nature is what is needed as the future is rolling toward us and we cant stop it. The idea is to train people correctly on the equipment that is available, and I think we need to seriously sit down and re-think future training needs. I'm just adding the "Beating A Dead Horse" 'cause it looks cool. ron __________________ Creature Of Habits; Mostly Bad* www.gudcscuba.com
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8th December 2005, 02:36	#29 (permalink)
Genesis Bubbless Box of Death Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Sunny Florida Posts: 1,395	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class I personally believe there is a crossover between OC and CCR diving in terms of safety that is a LOT closer to the surface (or penetration distance) than many people think. The "you're dead in 20 minutes" problem is very real on OC, and it contributes tremendously to the panic potential in any situation. Gas supply is ALWAYS in the back of your mind on OC dives, and when the dragon shows up its a BIG part of where he gets his fire from...... Taking the fire out of the dragon's breath makes him much easier to subdue or slay, as the occasion demands.....
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8th December 2005, 07:36	#30 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,487	Re: CCR VS. OC as first class Quote: (Originally Posted by Genesis) Yet - this is the only unit which was available commercially that required no formal training for purchase. Gordon recently changed this with the advent of the "Sport" model. FYI, the policy was changed before the introduction of the Sport-KISS. The no-training policy was only for the first X (can't remember the exact number) of Classic-KISS units. I will share an observation from the perpective of a KISS user who owned the Classic-KISS s/n: 7 (just meant that I have seen a lot of the changes)... IMHO, there is a difference between the average KISS owners from 4 years ago to the present KISS owners. The present KISS owners are more "average" divers who expect to buy a piece of equipment that function perfectly out of the box (to be expected) and not willing/capable of doing minor repairs/maintenance on the unit. They whine a lot about the different problems, and some of the problems were actually caused from not knowing which end of the screwdriver to hold (to quote Gordon). In contract, the older KISS owners are more hands-on group with a lot of initiative. For example, the small orifice idea to dive deeper and the improved SS case for the Classic-KISS were developed by a group in UK. Some of the guys from this same group also developed a permanent back-lit display for the original PO2 displays before Jetsam introduced their version. Looking at the archive of the KISS list will show such observation. Almost none of the early group ever post on the KISS list anymore for the same reason that I see some degradable is starting to erode some threads on here as well - people who doesn't have the expereince/knowledge are offering too much of their uninformed opinion. To get back to my original point, IMHO, in general it is not a good idea to expect the latter group of divers to dive the unit safely without formal training. Especially the user expectation now is to strap the unit on and dive deep without a lot of experience. I don't know how many Megs are out there, but I am guessing that the combined number of Classic- and Sport-KISS units is easily higher at around 300 (?) __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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