Should I carry bailout??

diveoceanos · 26th April 2008, 16:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver)

I received a full caustic cocktail without any notice, burning my mouth, my throat and air passage and causing me to vomit uncontrollably.
......

My DSV was caked in caustic material, if I had a BOV it would have been the same.

Just wondered. Could that real life example be used as a statement against the combination larger rebreather cylinders (7-10 lt) with a BOV (no B/O) vs smaller Rebreather cylinders with a BO?

Brainx3 · 26th April 2008, 16:11

Hi,

First of all, Carbon Fiber Cylinders give you much more gas than aluminum cylinders from the same size since aluminum cylinders are 200 bars and CFCs are 300 bars. So if you take 5 liters aluminum cylinder with you for bail-out you would need 3,2 liters CFC to give you approximately the same amount of gas that the 5 liters aluminum cylinder would with minor difference of 100 liters. Having CFC mounted on the back of the unit makes trimming more horizontal since these cylinders are too light then they support you to stablize your position underwater (though you will need identical cylinders to be mounted for example 3 liter X 2) Otherwise the balance would be affected. CFCs are great for travelling and for those who have back problems.

Best Regards. Wael

diveladydive · 26th April 2008, 16:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

Hello all,

I am just starting diving CCR, in my case is the Classic Kiss. The tanks are 3 liters each, the air one filled up to 230 bars.

The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary?

My thinking (I maybe wrong, that´s why I am posting this question), is that having the unit the BOV, the bailout is not necessary on this kind of diving, specially if care is taken and avoid being deeper than 18 meters when the air SPG is below 100 bares.

By other side, Jetsam recommends always having bailout.

I'll appreciate your feedback on this matter, as well as you please let me know if you carry separate bailout on this kind of recretional diving.

TIA,
Andres

YES!

When you are learning, one of the first things you will practice is bailout to OC whenever anything goes wrong. At this point, depth is irrelevant (to a degree- don't go beyond your training levels, etc.)

Although staying permanently off the loop will, in many cases, most likely change as you advance in your skills/ cert. levels, you need muscle memory built up, & it doesn't make sense to build in the wrong muscle memory from the get-go.

There are CCR divers known as "Alpinists" who do not beleive in bailout bottles, but that is a lifestyle and a beleif system developed over time and accepted indivdually by the diver.

No agency that I am aware of, or any manufacturer for that matter, allows students to be taught without a baillout bottle.

No matter how deep I dive, I always carry at least 2 bailout bottles, & not small ones which I could probably get away with on shalow or short dives. That way, I am always able to practice my skills using the bottles I dive with the most, which are identical in size to those of my partners- for a number of reasons, including partner-type skills practice.

snicks · 26th April 2008, 20:43

Regarding CFCs buoyancy:

CARBONDIVE

For those non-german speakers:

10l carbondive:
300bars 900g negative freshwater, 700g negative salt water
232bars neutral freshwater, 200g positive saltwater
100bars 1.7kg positive freshwater, 1.9kg positive saltwater

The 7l is nice, small and even half full almost neutral. Gasvolume about as much as a 10l ali. If they where only available... quite now they are impossible to find (in germany).

Greets
Dirk

diveladydive · 27th April 2008, 00:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

That should be printed and posted to all divers once a year. I licked my finger after filling my scrubber once and vomited for ten minutes, I can't imagine having that happen underwater with a full gobful of lime, I have the utmost respect for those insignificant little white grains -- and for anyone that survives a full cocktail. I've also got no doubt that it's going to take feck all lime contamination to render a DSV useless.

A cocktail and a CO2 hit are the two things that genuinely scare me on a rebreather, and the two things that only reliable bailout is going to save you from. Likewise, I won't go in water I can't stand up in without bailout either.

Tom Mount also received a caustic on a BOV. BOVs have their good points & their bad points- I'll be certified to teach on the Pelagian, a DCCR which can be ordered with a neutral-bouyancy BOV. Mine will not have one, mainly as I have access to one with a BOV if I need it for teaching purposes & I'll train with and without the BOV.

If the unit is already flooded (caustic mterial coming your way if you don't watch it), switching to a BOV seems to = drinking a cocktail.

You are also right that this is not a well-known fact re: BOVs

My overall knowledge, at this stage, of BOVs is minimal- please forgive me here- however, I like to know that I can go to an independent gas source (my bailout) for a sanilty breath if things start getting weird. Then I can make decisions with a clear head- including staying completely off the loop (yuch) given a CO2 breakhthrough that time will not fix (no chance of scrubber recovery) or a full flood that is out of my control & is affecting the scrubber big-time, leading to a definitlve CO2 hit.

Mixaddict · 27th April 2008, 06:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by diveladydive)

Tom Mount also received a caustic on a BOV. BOVs have their good points & their bad points- I'll be certified to teach on the Pelagian, a DCCR which can be ordered with a neutral-bouyancy BOV. Mine will not have one, mainly as I have access to one with a BOV if I need it for teaching purposes & I'll train with and without the BOV.

If the unit is already flooded (caustic mterial coming your way if you don't watch it), switching to a BOV seems to = drinking a cocktail.

You are also right that this is not a well-known fact re: BOVs

My overall knowledge, at this stage, of BOVs is minimal- please forgive me here- however, I like to know that I can go to an independent gas source (my bailout) for a sanilty breath if things start getting weird. Then I can make decisions with a clear head- including staying completely off the loop (yuch) given a CO2 breakhthrough that time will not fix (no chance of scrubber recovery) or a full flood that is out of my control & is affecting the scrubber big-time, leading to a definitlve CO2 hit.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides.

Lancer4545 · 27th April 2008, 07:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

Maybe it is a good idea to have a 2nd stage attached to the dil tank as well.

But this will have to wait. First I need to get familiar with the unit, and dive it as much as possible so I get used to the CK.

Your last sentence makes the most sense to me.........Go out dive the unit with plenty of bailout. When you have got a bit of time on the unit and have developed your own style of diving with the unit you will have a better idea of how you want it configured.

Try not to make the mistake of making your unit overly complicated and adding in too many potential failure points. Specially now when you've got enough to think about just getting comfortable with the unit.

It's called a KISS for a very good reason......"Keep it Simple Stupid"

Regards,

Lance

osiris · 27th April 2008, 08:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides.

Completely agree. BOV rulz. Having survived a CO2 incident at about 25 M, using the crappy paragon, I completely believe those people who advise on the extreme diffiuclty of switching to Octi in the midst of a CO2 hit. I believe a BOV is one piece of kit one shouldn't leave home without, even if it is a crappy BOV it's better than the alternative. I now use a Golem and it's a sweet unit to the depths I have gone on CCR (55M). I'll still have my octi though...but I would rather stick with the BOV all the way to the surface than try an switches that could go badly wrong in a high stress situation.

As to the question
that kicked this all off - YES! Otherwise, make sure your will, life insurance and burial plot are all up to date and paid for.

Nicholas von Rosen · 27th April 2008, 09:36

I would do tihs kind of diving without extra bail out...

I have a reg on the dil, and one the oxygen.

I carry seperate suit inflation...

But only on dives where I'm able to go straight to the surface

Nick

diveladydive · 27th April 2008, 19:26

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict)

I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides.

Tom's Pel is coming with a BOV, by the way- & his new HEAT (I thnk it's his new HEAT) has a BOV. There are pros & cons to everything, from cutoff switches on O2 to BOVs to solenoids, & everything in-between. Personal preference (& the number of RBs/toys you can afford) comes into play.

Who knows- I may end up paying the extra for the BOV upgrade on my Pel!

26th April 2008, 16:08	#41 (permalink)
diveoceanos New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Cyprus Posts: 43	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Decodiver) I received a full caustic cocktail without any notice, burning my mouth, my throat and air passage and causing me to vomit uncontrollably. ...... My DSV was caked in caustic material, if I had a BOV it would have been the same. Just wondered. Could that real life example be used as a statement against the combination larger rebreather cylinders (7-10 lt) with a BOV (no B/O) vs smaller Rebreather cylinders with a BO? Last edited by diveoceanos : 26th April 2008 at 16:14.
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26th April 2008, 16:11	#42 (permalink)
Brainx3 Temporary Read only mode for site infractions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Hi, First of all, Carbon Fiber Cylinders give you much more gas than aluminum cylinders from the same size since aluminum cylinders are 200 bars and CFCs are 300 bars. So if you take 5 liters aluminum cylinder with you for bail-out you would need 3,2 liters CFC to give you approximately the same amount of gas that the 5 liters aluminum cylinder would with minor difference of 100 liters. Having CFC mounted on the back of the unit makes trimming more horizontal since these cylinders are too light then they support you to stablize your position underwater (though you will need identical cylinders to be mounted for example 3 liter X 2) Otherwise the balance would be affected. CFCs are great for travelling and for those who have back problems. Best Regards. Wael
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26th April 2008, 16:20	#43 (permalink)
diveladydive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida Posts: 44	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) Hello all, I am just starting diving CCR, in my case is the Classic Kiss. The tanks are 3 liters each, the air one filled up to 230 bars. The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary? My thinking (I maybe wrong, that´s why I am posting this question), is that having the unit the BOV, the bailout is not necessary on this kind of diving, specially if care is taken and avoid being deeper than 18 meters when the air SPG is below 100 bares. By other side, Jetsam recommends always having bailout. I'll appreciate your feedback on this matter, as well as you please let me know if you carry separate bailout on this kind of recretional diving. TIA, Andres YES! When you are learning, one of the first things you will practice is bailout to OC whenever anything goes wrong. At this point, depth is irrelevant (to a degree- don't go beyond your training levels, etc.) Although staying permanently off the loop will, in many cases, most likely change as you advance in your skills/ cert. levels, you need muscle memory built up, & it doesn't make sense to build in the wrong muscle memory from the get-go. There are CCR divers known as "Alpinists" who do not beleive in bailout bottles, but that is a lifestyle and a beleif system developed over time and accepted indivdually by the diver. No agency that I am aware of, or any manufacturer for that matter, allows students to be taught without a baillout bottle. No matter how deep I dive, I always carry at least 2 bailout bottles, & not small ones which I could probably get away with on shalow or short dives. That way, I am always able to practice my skills using the bottles I dive with the most, which are identical in size to those of my partners- for a number of reasons, including partner-type skills practice. __________________ *Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies.* *Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement.* *Dr. Peri M. Blum* *Normoxic CCR Instructor, IANTD* *Optima Instructor, IANTD* *Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD* *www.supremedivers.com* *561-901-9715* The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone.
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26th April 2008, 20:43	#44 (permalink)
snicks New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Germany Posts: 27	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Regarding CFCs buoyancy: CARBONDIVE For those non-german speakers: 10l carbondive: 300bars 900g negative freshwater, 700g negative salt water 232bars neutral freshwater, 200g positive saltwater 100bars 1.7kg positive freshwater, 1.9kg positive saltwater The 7l is nice, small and even half full almost neutral. Gasvolume about as much as a 10l ali. If they where only available... quite now they are impossible to find (in germany). Greets Dirk __________________ Weltmacht mit drei Buchstaben? ICH!
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27th April 2008, 00:07	#45 (permalink)
diveladydive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida Posts: 44	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) That should be printed and posted to all divers once a year. I licked my finger after filling my scrubber once and vomited for ten minutes, I can't imagine having that happen underwater with a full gobful of lime, I have the utmost respect for those insignificant little white grains -- and for anyone that survives a full cocktail. I've also got no doubt that it's going to take feck all lime contamination to render a DSV useless. A cocktail and a CO2 hit are the two things that genuinely scare me on a rebreather, and the two things that only reliable bailout is going to save you from. Likewise, I won't go in water I can't stand up in without bailout either. Tom Mount also received a caustic on a BOV. BOVs have their good points & their bad points- I'll be certified to teach on the Pelagian, a DCCR which can be ordered with a neutral-bouyancy BOV. Mine will not have one, mainly as I have access to one with a BOV if I need it for teaching purposes & I'll train with and without the BOV. If the unit is already flooded (caustic mterial coming your way if you don't watch it), switching to a BOV seems to = drinking a cocktail. You are also right that this is not a well-known fact re: BOVs My overall knowledge, at this stage, of BOVs is minimal- please forgive me here- however, I like to know that I can go to an independent gas source (my bailout) for a sanilty breath if things start getting weird. Then I can make decisions with a clear head- including staying completely off the loop (yuch) given a CO2 breakhthrough that time will not fix (no chance of scrubber recovery) or a full flood that is out of my control & is affecting the scrubber big-time, leading to a definitlve CO2 hit. __________________ *Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies.* *Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement.* *Dr. Peri M. Blum* *Normoxic CCR Instructor, IANTD* *Optima Instructor, IANTD* *Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD* *www.supremedivers.com* *561-901-9715* The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone.
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27th April 2008, 06:13	#46 (permalink)
Mixaddict Always Learning! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other CCR Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Draper, Utah USA Posts: 426	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by diveladydive) Tom Mount also received a caustic on a BOV. BOVs have their good points & their bad points- I'll be certified to teach on the Pelagian, a DCCR which can be ordered with a neutral-bouyancy BOV. Mine will not have one, mainly as I have access to one with a BOV if I need it for teaching purposes & I'll train with and without the BOV. If the unit is already flooded (caustic mterial coming your way if you don't watch it), switching to a BOV seems to = drinking a cocktail. You are also right that this is not a well-known fact re: BOVs My overall knowledge, at this stage, of BOVs is minimal- please forgive me here- however, I like to know that I can go to an independent gas source (my bailout) for a sanilty breath if things start getting weird. Then I can make decisions with a clear head- including staying completely off the loop (yuch) given a CO2 breakhthrough that time will not fix (no chance of scrubber recovery) or a full flood that is out of my control & is affecting the scrubber big-time, leading to a definitlve CO2 hit. I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides. __________________ Randy Thornton (MixAddict) Inspiration, Evolution,Hammerhead & Sentinel CCR Instructor
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27th April 2008, 07:26	#47 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 574	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) Maybe it is a good idea to have a 2nd stage attached to the dil tank as well. But this will have to wait. First I need to get familiar with the unit, and dive it as much as possible so I get used to the CK. Your last sentence makes the most sense to me.........Go out dive the unit with plenty of bailout. When you have got a bit of time on the unit and have developed your own style of diving with the unit you will have a better idea of how you want it configured. Try not to make the mistake of making your unit overly complicated and adding in too many potential failure points. Specially now when you've got enough to think about just getting comfortable with the unit. It's called a KISS for a very good reason......"Keep it Simple Stupid" Regards, Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au Last edited by Lancer4545 : 27th April 2008 at 08:26.
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27th April 2008, 08:07	#48 (permalink)
osiris Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Auckland Posts: 230	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict) I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides. Completely agree. BOV rulz. Having survived a CO2 incident at about 25 M, using the crappy paragon, I completely believe those people who advise on the extreme diffiuclty of switching to Octi in the midst of a CO2 hit. I believe a BOV is one piece of kit one shouldn't leave home without, even if it is a crappy BOV it's better than the alternative. I now use a Golem and it's a sweet unit to the depths I have gone on CCR (55M). I'll still have my octi though...but I would rather stick with the BOV all the way to the surface than try an switches that could go badly wrong in a high stress situation. As to the question that kicked this all off - YES! Otherwise, make sure your will, life insurance and burial plot are all up to date and paid for.
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27th April 2008, 09:36	#49 (permalink)
Nicholas von Rosen Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Helsingoer, Denmark Posts: 152	Re: Should I carry bailout?? I would do tihs kind of diving without extra bail out... I have a reg on the dil, and one the oxygen. I carry seperate suit inflation... But only on dives where I'm able to go straight to the surface Nick __________________ NICK
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27th April 2008, 19:26	#50 (permalink)
diveladydive New Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Optima Titan Pelagian Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Southeastern Florida Posts: 44	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mixaddict) I don't think anyone is suggesting that having a BOV should preclude you from having a reg on your bailout. In the very unlikely event that you suffer a caustic cocktail, you would simply opt to go to your bailout reg instead of the BOV. IMHO the BOV is really a great option for pretty much any other sanity breath situation except a cocktail. I think that most people that have had time on a quality BOV really like the ease of access a BOV provides. Tom's Pel is coming with a BOV, by the way- & his new HEAT (I thnk it's his new HEAT) has a BOV. There are pros & cons to everything, from cutoff switches on O2 to BOVs to solenoids, & everything in-between. Personal preference (& the number of RBs/toys you can afford) comes into play. Who knows- I may end up paying the extra for the BOV upgrade on my Pel! __________________ *Complacency: Self-satisfaction especially when accompanied by ignorance of actual dangers or deficiencies.* *Success: A journey in which the improbable becomes possible, leading to surprising levels of achievement.* *Dr. Peri M. Blum* *Normoxic CCR Instructor, IANTD* *Optima Instructor, IANTD* *Member, Board of Advisors, IANTD* *www.supremedivers.com* *561-901-9715* The opinions expressed herein are those of the author and the author’s alone.
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