Should I carry bailout??

***Decodiver*** · 26th April 2008, 06:44

On May 25th 2006 I was at about 20 metres depth when I suffered a full flood on my CCR, I received a full caustic cocktail without any notice, burning my mouth, my throat and air passage and causing me to vomit uncontrollably.

Fortunately, I had bailout, I half emptied an ali-40 cuft in the 2 minutes it took me to get to the surface, puking all the way.

My DSV was caked in caustic material, if I had a BOV it would have been the same. The strength of the cocktail, stripped the anodizing from one of my VR3s underwater!

If I did not have bailout, I would have died.

It was my daughter's first birthday.

I wouldn't get into a swimming pool without bailout.

Dave 'Bailout' Cooper.

Mark Chase · 26th April 2008, 07:04

I dived the Inspo CCR on shalow dives (20m max) without bailout because it had a seporate reg plumbed into dill and excelent flood recovery with front mounted counterlungs.

No way would I do this with my KISS.

I have a Golum BOV which breaths lovely but as Dave said above a cuastic coctail could make it unusable which is why i also have a reg on my bailout tin (BOV is conected to bailout tin)

Flood recovery on a KISS is rubbish. A half pint of water can make it unusable.

I have only bailed out once on the KISS and that was in 8m of water but inside a cave. The flood is beleived to be from a small 4mm cut in the mouthpiece. The unit obviously passed pos and neg no problem.

ATB

Mark

Dive!Dive! · 26th April 2008, 08:37

Personal opinion : Always carry bailout and dont dive with CCR divers who dont have it....

More importantly : actually practice using it and doing full OC bail out ascents to see just how much gas you will use. Most people will find this shocking. My buddy and I have been making this part of our winter quarry dives : do a bailout ascent at the end of each dive, both on fixed lines and SMBs. In a non stressed practice like this my SAC has been about 18-20. For reference I would regularly get about 12-14 on an OC mix dive. I could easily imagine 40+ with CO2, stress or both.

Steve

Mike · 26th April 2008, 10:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary?

Lets see,
Dive you could do on a single tank: check
Normoxic dil: check
More bailout (in onboard dil) than a spare air: check

As others have said, carrying a 40 is simple and good practice, but I wouldn't bother. No deco (or light deco) wall dives I'll bounce down to 50 without offboard bailout. Diving with the mother of my son, when she's on OC, I take bailout.

Mike

Sutty · 26th April 2008, 10:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!)

...and dont dive with CCR divers who dont have it....

This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some!

Neil

Dive!Dive! · 26th April 2008, 10:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty)

This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some!

Neil

Yes, that was my point. I wouldnt / couldn't refuse to donate air either. Best to dive as a team and both have sufficient bailout (ideally the same gases - makes life easier)......

Steve

Lancer4545 · 26th April 2008, 10:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp)

Hello all,

I am just starting diving CCR, in my case is the Classic Kiss. The tanks are 3 liters each, the air one filled up to 230 bars.

The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary?

My thinking (I maybe wrong, that´s why I am posting this question), is that having the unit the BOV, the bailout is not necessary on this kind of diving, specially if care is taken and avoid being deeper than 18 meters when the air SPG is below 100 bares.

By other side, Jetsam recommends always having bailout.

It never ceases to amaze me how many guys continue to dive without adequate bailout. The days of thinking that I can safely bail out to my 2 or 3 litre dil tanks are long gone.

If you still aren't sure if you should carry it then look at this video, then ask yourself the question again.

CO2: The rebreather incident

Take bailout every time you go diving and lots of it........

Lance

Stephane · 26th April 2008, 10:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty)

This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some!

Neil

This is the reason why I left a normal second stage on all of my bailout regs (I'm using a BOV). And I do carry a 12l carbon tank on all of my dives.

Gary Graham · 26th April 2008, 11:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545)

It never ceases to amaze me how many guys continue to dive without adequate bailout. The days of thinking that I can safely bail out to my 2 or 3 litre dil tanks are long gone.

If you still aren't sure if you should carry it then look at this video, then ask yourself the question again.

CO2: The rebreather incident

Take bailout every time you go diving and lots of it........

Lance

Could'nt agree more. The question "should or should'nt I carry bailout" is a no-brainer really.

Dive safe,

Gary

Brainx3 · 26th April 2008, 11:29

Hi,

Well it's an interesting fact that with a cocktail in the loop then the BOV is mostly not usable. I dive Inspiration and as many do I also have a second stage attached to my Diluent tank. Neverthless, regardless of the depth, I would still take an extra off-board tank for bail-out, although the size of the off-board tank will depend on my dive planning. Like Stephane, I have ordered a carbon fiber cylinder so I can use it regularly for bail-out. We are currently working with some manufacturers to produce 2 liters and 3 liters carbon fiber cylinders for SCUBA use so hopefully that would make a difference to encourage people carry bail-outs more often since the weight of these cylinders are much lighter than aluminum. The results will be published in another thread.

Best Regards. Wael

26th April 2008, 06:44	#21 (permalink)
*Decodiver* Administrator Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Ouroboros rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Geneva Posts: 2,165	Re: Should I carry bailout?? On May 25th 2006 I was at about 20 metres depth when I suffered a full flood on my CCR, I received a full caustic cocktail without any notice, burning my mouth, my throat and air passage and causing me to vomit uncontrollably. Fortunately, I had bailout, I half emptied an ali-40 cuft in the 2 minutes it took me to get to the surface, puking all the way. My DSV was caked in caustic material, if I had a BOV it would have been the same. The strength of the cocktail, stripped the anodizing from one of my VR3s underwater! If I did not have bailout, I would have died. It was my daughter's first birthday. I wouldn't get into a swimming pool without bailout. Dave 'Bailout' Cooper. __________________ CCR/OC Trimix Instructor Trainer CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on Megalodon/COPIS-Megalodon/KISS/Sport KISS/Ouroboros/rEvo/Inspiration/Evolution/Sentinel www.zerogravitydiving.com Rebreather World Terms & Conditions
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26th April 2008, 07:04	#22 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,461	Re: Should I carry bailout?? I dived the Inspo CCR on shalow dives (20m max) without bailout because it had a seporate reg plumbed into dill and excelent flood recovery with front mounted counterlungs. No way would I do this with my KISS. I have a Golum BOV which breaths lovely but as Dave said above a cuastic coctail could make it unusable which is why i also have a reg on my bailout tin (BOV is conected to bailout tin) Flood recovery on a KISS is rubbish. A half pint of water can make it unusable. I have only bailed out once on the KISS and that was in 8m of water but inside a cave. The flood is beleived to be from a small 4mm cut in the mouthpiece. The unit obviously passed pos and neg no problem. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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26th April 2008, 08:37	#23 (permalink)
Dive!Dive! New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 92	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Personal opinion : Always carry bailout and dont dive with CCR divers who dont have it.... More importantly : actually practice using it and doing full OC bail out ascents to see just how much gas you will use. Most people will find this shocking. My buddy and I have been making this part of our winter quarry dives : do a bailout ascent at the end of each dive, both on fixed lines and SMBs. In a non stressed practice like this my SAC has been about 18-20. For reference I would regularly get about 12-14 on an OC mix dive. I could easily imagine 40+ with CO2, stress or both. Steve
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26th April 2008, 10:38	#24 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 319	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary? Lets see, Dive you could do on a single tank: check Normoxic dil: check More bailout (in onboard dil) than a spare air: check As others have said, carrying a 40 is simple and good practice, but I wouldn't bother. No deco (or light deco) wall dives I'll bounce down to 50 without offboard bailout. Diving with the mother of my son, when she's on OC, I take bailout. Mike __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop
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26th April 2008, 10:40	#25 (permalink)
Sutty Classic Kiss diver Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Glossop, Derbyshire, UK Posts: 775	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!) ...and dont dive with CCR divers who dont have it.... This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some! Neil __________________ Never forget that life is a finite resource.
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26th April 2008, 10:47	#26 (permalink)
Dive!Dive! New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 92	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty) This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some! Neil Yes, that was my point. I wouldnt / couldn't refuse to donate air either. Best to dive as a team and both have sufficient bailout (ideally the same gases - makes life easier)...... Steve
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26th April 2008, 10:59	#27 (permalink)
Lancer4545 Closed Circuit Divers Aus Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Cairns QLD Australia Posts: 564	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by andrespp) Hello all, I am just starting diving CCR, in my case is the Classic Kiss. The tanks are 3 liters each, the air one filled up to 230 bars. The question is as follows: bearing in mind that for a time I shall be using the unit on multilevel dives, not deeper than 30 meters, with no deco, do you think that carrying bailout is necessary? My thinking (I maybe wrong, that´s why I am posting this question), is that having the unit the BOV, the bailout is not necessary on this kind of diving, specially if care is taken and avoid being deeper than 18 meters when the air SPG is below 100 bares. By other side, Jetsam recommends always having bailout. It never ceases to amaze me how many guys continue to dive without adequate bailout. The days of thinking that I can safely bail out to my 2 or 3 litre dil tanks are long gone. If you still aren't sure if you should carry it then look at this video, then ask yourself the question again. CO2: The rebreather incident Take bailout every time you go diving and lots of it........ Lance __________________ You can run but you can't hide! ISC Appointed Megalodon Dealer for East Australia http://www.closedcircuitdivers.com.au info@closedcircuitdivers.com.au
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26th April 2008, 10:59	#28 (permalink)
Stephane Hey! Ho! Let's go! Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Nantes - France Posts: 716	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Sutty) This is an interesting, but logical, take on this. If your buddy who takes no bailout has a major problem (eg a caustic cocktail), he WILL be trying to take your bailout if he hasn't done a rapid ascent to the surface. This may then leave you without bailout again. I know that I could not personally refuse my bailout gas to an out-of-options diver (and watch him drown), and don't imagine they would take "no" for an answer anyway! If you want to carry enough gas for both of you you'll need a bigger cylinder, or two stages (at least). Much easier if you both take some! Neil This is the reason why I left a normal second stage on all of my bailout regs (I'm using a BOV). And I do carry a 12l carbon tank on all of my dives. __________________ Stéphane Hammer-rEvo powered!
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26th April 2008, 11:03	#29 (permalink)
Gary Graham New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: St Helens, UK Posts: 89	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Quote: (Originally Posted by Lancer4545) It never ceases to amaze me how many guys continue to dive without adequate bailout. The days of thinking that I can safely bail out to my 2 or 3 litre dil tanks are long gone. If you still aren't sure if you should carry it then look at this video, then ask yourself the question again. CO2: The rebreather incident Take bailout every time you go diving and lots of it........ Lance Could'nt agree more. The question "should or should'nt I carry bailout" is a no-brainer really. Dive safe, Gary __________________ CK#103
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26th April 2008, 11:29	#30 (permalink)
Brainx3 Temporary Read only mode for site infractions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Should I carry bailout?? Hi, Well it's an interesting fact that with a cocktail in the loop then the BOV is mostly not usable. I dive Inspiration and as many do I also have a second stage attached to my Diluent tank. Neverthless, regardless of the depth, I would still take an extra off-board tank for bail-out, although the size of the off-board tank will depend on my dive planning. Like Stephane, I have ordered a carbon fiber cylinder so I can use it regularly for bail-out. We are currently working with some manufacturers to produce 2 liters and 3 liters carbon fiber cylinders for SCUBA use so hopefully that would make a difference to encourage people carry bail-outs more often since the weight of these cylinders are much lighter than aluminum. The results will be published in another thread. Best Regards. Wael
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