Calling all CCR manufacturers!

**Gill Envy** · 21st April 2008, 23:00

Dear manufacturers,

we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way.

At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread.

it would be great to at least know:
-total of a given unit sold
-units thought to be in use today
-number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc)

At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us!

with eternal optimism,

**UWSojourner** · 22nd April 2008, 00:31

Dear Eternal Optimist,

We share your interest in safety. Believe us when we say that each death on one of our products is both painful and costly. We share your interest in customers having a very positive experience in the industry we serve.

Our product numbers are not really a trade secret. Anyone is free to gather information about the numbers of RBs in use. However, when we know that any such information released will simply be cut in half (because?), we wonder what particular purpose it serves. In fact, another company associated with the rebreather market represents that their estimates of numbers in use are "within 10%" of the correct figures. We question whether, in that environment, it makes sense to do anything. Don't you already have accurate figures?

While we understand speculation is not desired, we have to say that it might be best to remain silent. The same company that believes they have accurate exposure data has already broadcast their intent to support plaintiff's attorneys in any lawsuits brought against us. While we understand an "eternal optimist" thinking that might be an environment where free exchange of ideas would be beneficial, please forgive us if we simply say we're unconvinced.

We do appreciate your interest. We also truly appreciate your diligence while diving our products as any death hurts all concerned -- the diver, the family, the manufacturer, and the industry.

With warm regards,

Manufacturers

------------

Sorry, just what I'd say if I were one of "them".

AD_ward9 · 22nd April 2008, 02:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Dear manufacturers,

we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way.

At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread.

it would be great to at least know:
-total of a given unit sold
-units thought to be in use today
-number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc)

At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us!

with eternal optimism,

More detailed information than the unit type does not help you understand accidents, because when a unit is recovered, the exact model is not known half the time.

Most manufacturers do share overall numbers, and those that do not have enough unique components for those who do their homework/buy enough beers, to work out.

Even the manufacturer does not know what proportion are in regular use: it is always an estimate, where again, doing your homework helps.

Alex

Drmike · 22nd April 2008, 02:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner)

Dear Eternal Optimist,

We share your interest in safety. Believe us when we say that each death on one of our products is both painful and costly. We share your interest in customers having a very positive experience in the industry we serve.

Our product numbers are not really a trade secret. Anyone is free to gather information about the numbers of RBs in use. However, when we know that any such information released will simply be cut in half (because?), we wonder what particular purpose it serves. In fact, another company associated with the rebreather market represents that their estimates of numbers in use are "within 10%" of the correct figures. We question whether, in that environment, it makes sense to do anything. Don't you already have accurate figures?

While we understand speculation is not desired, we have to say that it might be best to remain silent. The same company that believes they have accurate exposure data has already broadcast their intent to support plaintiff's attorneys in any lawsuits brought against us. While we understand an "eternal optimist" thinking that might be an environment where free exchange of ideas would be beneficial, please forgive us if we simply say we're unconvinced.

We do appreciate your interest. We also truly appreciate your diligence while diving our products as any death hurts all concerned -- the diver, the family, the manufacturer, and the industry.

With warm regards,

Manufacturers

------------

Sorry, just what I'd say if I were one of "them".

ahh so it was Alexs fault all along that mnf are reluctant to (and APD has long since had a policy agianst it) release sales data.

Glad thats cleared up

Its only APDs numbers that are the big question mark (most other units are given unit numbers) and they have historically chosen a policy of not releasing their sales figures since they 1st started - ergo that policy historically has got f_ck all to do with Alex.

I suspect keeping sales figures unclear has nothing to do with court cases and more to do with commercial competition. Market size data for emerging markets is valuable.

Not taking sides - just pointing out that fact

As an aside, isnt it so much more fun when we have an 'enemy' we can all gang up against - reminds me of the machinations of the school bullies and 'cool kids' at school

I note on the APD list Chasey is now right up there with Alex as the devil re encarnate

I heard from a friend of a friend that one or both of them may be harboring weapons of mass destruction too .........

**UWSojourner** · 22nd April 2008, 03:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Its only APDs numbers that are the big question mark (most other units are given unit numbers) ...

There can't be that big a question mark ... we already have accurate figures "to within 10%", remember? In any case we automatically cut actual sold numbers by 50% anyway. Evidently we know the others are garage decorations.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Not taking sides - just pointing out that fact

Of course, I stipulate that you are the model of objective debate.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

As an aside, isnt it so much more fun when we have an 'enemy' we can all gang up against

Yes! Hitting those wicked manufacturers hard and fast is both fun and makes us look "objective" and "avid supporters of safety." Let's all kick those wicked, wicked people who delivery to us what we want (when will it be available?). Then we can despise them for allowing us to use the stuff we clamor to get (all eCCRs are crap, remember?). Who cares that we jumped at the chance to purchase what was the latest, coolest gear available to us -- if I screw up I have an enemy to attack and experts ready to help my attorney make me look reasonable in court.

Hey, Mike, my post was a light-hearted reply to Gill's open letter. My post was hypothetical ... what I thought I'd say "if I were a manufacturer". I'm not. You're shadow boxing. Go out and find another 'enemy'.

**Gill Envy** · 22nd April 2008, 04:05

I hate to break up the party but can we actually give this a few days and see if we can attract the intended input. I know it's highly optimistic but I just thought that maybe a direct and polite request was worth a try.

g

gtzavelas · 22nd April 2008, 07:09

Maybe Rebreather World can help, specially on the units currently used

with the "advanced search" I found that 654 members are claiming that they are currently diving with a Meg!!!
(on Alexs stats the assumption is 300).
Its clear that some of the people don’t update their profile after selling their unit, or they have quit diving

So a ground breaking idea to the mods: Delete from all the profiles the "unit currently owned"
Send a PM to all users to update their profile. Obviously only the current, active members will respond and we will end up with more accurate number of "unit currently owned"

paulraymaekers · 22nd April 2008, 07:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

Dear manufacturers,

we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way.

At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread.

it would be great to at least know:
-total of a given unit sold
-units thought to be in use today
-number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc)

At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us!

with eternal optimism,

not a big secret: effectively today, best estimate of :
actually IN USE units: 124 rEvo's ( all mCCR, exept 4 :-)

then +/- 10 not in use (stolen, lost, truck drove over it, decoration of the garage..)
then +/- 10 supplied but not yet in use (waiting for training)

regards
paul

Dutchy · 22nd April 2008, 07:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

not a big secret: effectively today, best estimate of :
actually IN USE units: 124 rEvo's ( all mCCR, exept 4 :-)

then +/- 10 not in use (stolen, lost, truck drove over it, decoration of the garage..)
then +/- 10 supplied but not yet in use (waiting for training)

regards
paul

That's the spirit Paul. Be ready to be greened a lot...

PCDiver · 22nd April 2008, 08:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas)

Maybe Rebreather World can help, specially on the units currently used

with the "advanced search" I found that 654 members are claiming that they are currently diving with a Meg!!!
(on Alexs stats the assumption is 300).
Its clear that some of the people don’t update their profile after selling their unit, or they have quit diving

So a ground breaking idea to the mods: Delete from all the profiles the "unit currently owned"
Send a PM to all users to update their profile. Obviously only the current, active members will respond and we will end up with more accurate number of "unit currently owned"

I know plenty rebreather dives that haven't registered on Rebreather World.

21st April 2008, 23:00	#1 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,250	Calling all CCR manufacturers! Dear manufacturers, we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way. At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread. it would be great to at least know: -total of a given unit sold -units thought to be in use today -number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc) At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us! with eternal optimism, __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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22nd April 2008, 00:31	#2 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Dear Eternal Optimist, We share your interest in safety. Believe us when we say that each death on one of our products is both painful and costly. We share your interest in customers having a very positive experience in the industry we serve. Our product numbers are not really a trade secret. Anyone is free to gather information about the numbers of RBs in use. However, when we know that any such information released will simply be cut in half (because?), we wonder what particular purpose it serves. In fact, another company associated with the rebreather market represents that their estimates of numbers in use are "within 10%" of the correct figures. We question whether, in that environment, it makes sense to do anything. Don't you already have accurate figures? While we understand speculation is not desired, we have to say that it might be best to remain silent. The same company that believes they have accurate exposure data has already broadcast their intent to support plaintiff's attorneys in any lawsuits brought against us. While we understand an "eternal optimist" thinking that might be an environment where free exchange of ideas would be beneficial, please forgive us if we simply say we're unconvinced. We do appreciate your interest. We also truly appreciate your diligence while diving our products as any death hurts all concerned -- the diver, the family, the manufacturer, and the industry. With warm regards, Manufacturers ------------ Sorry, just what I'd say if I were one of "them". Last edited by UWSojourner : 22nd April 2008 at 02:25.
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22nd April 2008, 02:44	#3 (permalink)
AD_ward9 So much more to learn Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 1,589	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Dear manufacturers, we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way. At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread. it would be great to at least know: -total of a given unit sold -units thought to be in use today -number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc) At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us! with eternal optimism, More detailed information than the unit type does not help you understand accidents, because when a unit is recovered, the exact model is not known half the time. Most manufacturers do share overall numbers, and those that do not have enough unique components for those who do their homework/buy enough beers, to work out. Even the manufacturer does not know what proportion are in regular use: it is always an estimate, where again, doing your homework helps. Alex
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22nd April 2008, 02:53	#4 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,128	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by UWSojourner) Dear Eternal Optimist, We share your interest in safety. Believe us when we say that each death on one of our products is both painful and costly. We share your interest in customers having a very positive experience in the industry we serve. Our product numbers are not really a trade secret. Anyone is free to gather information about the numbers of RBs in use. However, when we know that any such information released will simply be cut in half (because?), we wonder what particular purpose it serves. In fact, another company associated with the rebreather market represents that their estimates of numbers in use are "within 10%" of the correct figures. We question whether, in that environment, it makes sense to do anything. Don't you already have accurate figures? While we understand speculation is not desired, we have to say that it might be best to remain silent. The same company that believes they have accurate exposure data has already broadcast their intent to support plaintiff's attorneys in any lawsuits brought against us. While we understand an "eternal optimist" thinking that might be an environment where free exchange of ideas would be beneficial, please forgive us if we simply say we're unconvinced. We do appreciate your interest. We also truly appreciate your diligence while diving our products as any death hurts all concerned -- the diver, the family, the manufacturer, and the industry. With warm regards, Manufacturers ------------ Sorry, just what I'd say if I were one of "them". ahh so it was Alexs fault all along that mnf are reluctant to (and APD has long since had a policy agianst it) release sales data. Glad thats cleared up Its only APDs numbers that are the big question mark (most other units are given unit numbers) and they have historically chosen a policy of not releasing their sales figures since they 1st started - ergo that policy historically has got f_ck all to do with Alex. I suspect keeping sales figures unclear has nothing to do with court cases and more to do with commercial competition. Market size data for emerging markets is valuable. Not taking sides - just pointing out that fact As an aside, isnt it so much more fun when we have an 'enemy' we can all gang up against - reminds me of the machinations of the school bullies and 'cool kids' at school I note on the APD list Chasey is now right up there with Alex as the devil re encarnate I heard from a friend of a friend that one or both of them may be harboring weapons of mass destruction too ......... __________________ Get a girlfriend you sad twat - a Rebreather is an unfaithful mistress - dont blind yourself to her faults just because she goes down on you Last edited by Drmike : 22nd April 2008 at 03:04.
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22nd April 2008, 03:54	#5 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Its only APDs numbers that are the big question mark (most other units are given unit numbers) ... There can't be that big a question mark ... we already have accurate figures "to within 10%", remember? In any case we automatically cut actual sold numbers by 50% anyway. Evidently we *know* the others are garage decorations. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Not taking sides - just pointing out that fact Of course, I stipulate that you are the model of objective debate. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) As an aside, isnt it so much more fun when we have an 'enemy' we can all gang up against Yes! Hitting those wicked manufacturers hard and fast is both fun and makes us look "objective" and "avid supporters of safety." Let's all kick those wicked, wicked people who delivery to us what we want (when will it be available?). Then we can despise them for allowing us to use the stuff we clamor to get (all eCCRs are crap, remember?). Who cares that we jumped at the chance to purchase what was the latest, coolest gear available to us -- if I screw up I have an enemy to attack and experts ready to help my attorney make me look reasonable in court. Hey, Mike, my post was a light-hearted reply to Gill's open letter. My post was hypothetical ... what I thought I'd say "if I were a manufacturer". I'm not. You're shadow boxing. Go out and find another 'enemy'.
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22nd April 2008, 04:05	#6 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,250	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! I hate to break up the party but can we actually give this a few days and see if we can attract the intended input. I know it's highly optimistic but I just thought that maybe a direct and polite request was worth a try. g __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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22nd April 2008, 07:09	#7 (permalink)
gtzavelas Rebreather World Writer Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon RB80 / Clone Other Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Athens,Greece Posts: 229	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Maybe Rebreather World can help, specially on the units currently used with the "advanced search" I found that 654 members are claiming that they are currently diving with a Meg!!! (on Alexs stats the assumption is 300). Its clear that some of the people don’t update their profile after selling their unit, or they have quit diving So a ground breaking idea to the mods: Delete from all the profiles the "unit currently owned" Send a PM to all users to update their profile. Obviously only the current, active members will respond and we will end up with more accurate number of "unit currently owned"
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22nd April 2008, 07:56	#8 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,377	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) Dear manufacturers, we as a global community have grown ever more interested in understanding statistics around rebreather types, fatal accidents and technological changes. We realize that some of that information is proprietary and necessarily a secret but some information is held private to avoid undue speculation. At this point, the lack of hard numbers is fueling more speculation than it is holding back... because we live in the age of global communication and can't help but ask questions and seek truth. Naturally some speculation is bound to happen either way. At this point, we are in the dark. Please help us out. I will hold with great respect any and all manufacturers who have the integrity to release official numbers here on this thread. it would be great to at least know: -total of a given unit sold -units thought to be in use today -number of each type: a break down by major design/electronics change. (classic vs vision, apex version vs Copis, version of hammerhead electronics, etc) At this point I think our ignorance is hurting the industry more than the facts could will ever be. Please help enlighten us! with eternal optimism, not a big secret: effectively today, best estimate of : actually IN USE units: 124 rEvo's ( all mCCR, exept 4 :-) then +/- 10 not in use (stolen, lost, truck drove over it, decoration of the garage..) then +/- 10 supplied but not yet in use (waiting for training) regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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22nd April 2008, 07:59	#9 (permalink)
Dutchy SK#007 Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 699	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) not a big secret: effectively today, best estimate of : actually IN USE units: 124 rEvo's ( all mCCR, exept 4 :-) then +/- 10 not in use (stolen, lost, truck drove over it, decoration of the garage..) then +/- 10 supplied but not yet in use (waiting for training) regards paul That's the spirit Paul. Be ready to be greened a lot... __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. = SK #007
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22nd April 2008, 08:04	#10 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 907	Re: Calling all CCR manufacturers! Quote: (Originally Posted by gtzavelas) Maybe Rebreather World can help, specially on the units currently used with the "advanced search" I found that 654 members are claiming that they are currently diving with a Meg!!! (on Alexs stats the assumption is 300). Its clear that some of the people don’t update their profile after selling their unit, or they have quit diving So a ground breaking idea to the mods: Delete from all the profiles the "unit currently owned" Send a PM to all users to update their profile. Obviously only the current, active members will respond and we will end up with more accurate number of "unit currently owned" I know plenty rebreather dives that haven't registered on Rebreather World. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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