Law and order for the world of divers

Mohamed Mousa · 14th April 2008, 18:25

Hello everyone
i'm not really good with writing creatively but i'll try my best.

I was just reading a post about equipment failure and it made me think and connect to an idea.
The amount of equipment failures that i've witnessed during 7 years is pretty meracioulus, i've also had a few regulator mulfuntions due to no reason, i guess i was well prepared for those at the time but for how long this is life support equipment for gods sake, last week i had a british ccr trimix diver with me in sharm el sheikh who had his vr3 just brought back from the factory for the third time, i'm not talking about vr3 computers specifically although it's one of the most important parts of a kit for a tmx ccr diver(i own 2 by the way) but what i mean is every part of the equipment from the ccr electronics to the fin strap breaking loose.

How may times have you heard of someone sending his brand new mercedes benz or even mitsubishi back to the factory to be fixed and even if u did hear of any how many? on the other hand how many times have u heard of dive equipment malfunctions. i know the auto makers have research departments, labs and quality control but so should the gear manufacturers isn't this life support equipment.

manufacturers no more have anything to fear except there competitors, why isn't there some kind of association that approves equipment to be used by divers. some manufactures when having a product ready for sale they just realease it and modify it as they go.(ex. dive computers with algorithms and updates)

in your opinion how can we create and activate a consumer protection rights and i mean consumers not customer. i know all manufacturers say and write on there equipment that they u can kill your self if u miss use them. but what if u don't miss use them(follow requirments of training,manufacutrer's, environment etc...) and cause u a failure, i know u can sue companies in europe and states if they have problems in production companies like coca cola pepsi etc.. we have all heard of cases against multinational companies but i haven't heard of a diving company going out of business because there equipments weren't up to the durability and well built that we all dream off. does any one of u have a piece of life support equipment that you can 100% bet ur life on?

WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

keep finning
Mousa

David Pye · 14th April 2008, 18:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa)

Hello everyone
<snip>
manufacturers no more have anything to fear except there competitors, why isn't there some kind of association that approves equipment to be used by divers. some manufactures when having a product ready for sale they just realease it and modify it as they go.(ex. dive computers with algorithms and updates)
<snip>
WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT?

keep finning
Mousa

Arghhhh, no, not more regulatory bodies. It's a nice idea that we should be saved from our ignorance by someone who knows better, but it very rarely seems to do anything. It either becomes a cartel (if run by industry), or if it's government run, it becomes a pile of paperwork that allows very little to be done to improve things and requires the manufacturer to pay to certify the device, which they are often ill-inclined to do (c.f. Jetsam, Innerspace etc).

Plus, the certification seems to make little difference to the 'safety' or reliability of the device.

David

jkaterenchuk · 14th April 2008, 18:53

Mousa

Incidently, I had a BMW that had multiple problems and some of them were repetitive. I was quite glad that they paid for all the repairs during the warantee period. No questions asked.

I think your question should be more "What are YOU prepared to do about it"

Each of use vote with our purchasing dollars. If the cash flow stops or slows down a well run company figures out the reasons and then spends its financial and intelectual capital to change course. Are you prepared to not purchase those VR3's? Or to openly post the problems they have had even if it results in you having no outlet to sell them in the future?

If that does not work then there is always the legal recourse of a class action. So are you prepared to put the time, money and frustration into organizing and supporting such an effort?

Additionally, you can turn to government intervention. Are you prepared to take that tiger by the tail and live with the decisions of a third party that might also not be exactly what you wanted?

Are you prepared to bear the onslaught of people waiting to critize you for your efforts and opinions because theirs are contrary to yours or that they have a personal agenda that is contrary to your efforts.

I know of only a few people such as this on Rebreather World and I applaud them for going beyond where most of us are prepared to go in expressing their opinion of what they believe to be right.

If they are indeed correct then in time there will be enough "YOU's" that they will represent the majority and then they can have and effect on setting the expectations for the industry.

I am not trying to place any blame or direct any comments directly at you but rather I use the YOU generically to mean each of us as individuals.

John

Mohamed Mousa · 14th April 2008, 19:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk)

Mousa

Incidently, I had a BMW that had multiple problems and some of them were repetitive. I was quite glad that they paid for all the repairs during the warantee period. No questions asked.

I think your question should be more "What are YOU prepared to do about it"

Each of use vote with our purchasing dollars. If the cash flow stops or slows down a well run company figures out the reasons and then spends its financial and intelectual capital to change course. Are you prepared to not purchase those VR3's? Or to openly post the problems they have had even if it results in you having no outlet to sell them in the future?

John

Actually i still insist on the way i phrased the question because i didn't talk about an individual in any of my lines what i was talking about is a possibility of putting our hands on what could protect the customer from the manufacturer in life support equipment, there should be requirments like the ce tests in regulators but a more sophisticated one for life support eqipment

with all the respect to vr3 but i look at it underwater as a failure point and plan for the loss of it while maybe a sherwater persuit diver will still plan for the loss of his computer but will be more relaxed as he didn't hear as of many failures comparing to the vr3's popular failures

Again i'm not talking about vr3 don't be specific about a computer i love mine they have been working great so far. i'm talking about every other piece of equipment out there as well. we want all manufacturers to go through rough test before being able to release units. like ISC i really respected and was amazed when they published there test results. we want all producers to have to go through these types of tests and more to assure a dependable life support equipment

Keep finning
Mousa

bletso · 15th April 2008, 10:32

Actually people vote all the time. When something works they tell a couple of friends, when they are displeased, they tell a couple hundred.

Dale

**nigelh** · 15th April 2008, 11:30

The real problem when you start putting big regulations in to 'protect' people is that all the things we do now become illegal.

I have an Inspiration in bits all over the bench at home with new cells, improved D-rings, changes to the harness and other mods all going in. If the dive police saw that I'd be marched off in irons - protective custody?

.

I'm always worried by people who want to protect me. I used to race motorcycles and my club used to kill two people a year on average so shutting us down would have saved lives. Would that have been good? OK I'd like it if they hadn't died but we knew what we were getting into and we were allowed to make that choice. Diving is far far safer but unless we want to breed out the adventure gene and just be a nation of couch potatoes some personal risks must be legal.

I bought a commercial rebreather as a good starting point. I'd been modifying my OC gear for years and I never thought of it as a fixed entity. I'm glad I don't have to conform to some standards because I like to stay up to date on the ideas about and adopt those I feel are relevant to me. I don't have to wait until they are committeed into the spec and then get them like it or not.

As I have said elsewhere, if I get hauled out cold having won a Darwin it was my choice to go in the water that day and I chose the kit and, mostly, I maintain it or decide who does. There will be nobody to blame but me. You can't even blame my instructors as they've been good and if I ignored something they taught me I did know it and just decide that on that day it didn't apply to me.

Sorry it's a bit of a ramble. This whole business of regulation and approval bugs me. There are lots of things you shouldn't do if you don't understand the risks and understating the kit is part of understanding the risk.

***EBT*** · 15th April 2008, 11:44

No More regulations please...... user your common sense and the existing legal frameworks (things like the UK sales of goods act, whereby a product must be 'fit for purpose').

Regulation is a double edged sword, but once its in place you'll find it almost impossible to ammend in any meaningful timeframe should there be problems with it. Anyone else want to discuss the new M26 valve thread in europe?

paulraymaekers · 15th April 2008, 12:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa)

How may times have you heard of someone sending his brand new mercedes benz or even mitsubishi back to the factory to be fixed and even if u did hear of any how many?

hello Mousa, you would really be amazed!!
certain series of mercedes have had +50% return rate to garage because of malfunction...

(mine returned 7 times in the first 6 months!!!!)

it all has to do with bringing up the market as soon as possible, without testing all functionalities...

so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems..

paul

***Beanie*** · 15th April 2008, 12:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems..

Just look at microsoft

UKSteve · 15th April 2008, 12:40

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems..

paul

BAA / BA Terminal 5

Steve

14th April 2008, 18:25	#1 (permalink)
Mohamed Mousa New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Egypt Posts: 11	Law and order for the world of divers Hello everyone i'm not really good with writing creatively but i'll try my best. I was just reading a post about equipment failure and it made me think and connect to an idea. The amount of equipment failures that i've witnessed during 7 years is pretty meracioulus, i've also had a few regulator mulfuntions due to no reason, i guess i was well prepared for those at the time but for how long this is life support equipment for gods sake, last week i had a british ccr trimix diver with me in sharm el sheikh who had his vr3 just brought back from the factory for the third time, i'm not talking about vr3 computers specifically although it's one of the most important parts of a kit for a tmx ccr diver(i own 2 by the way) but what i mean is every part of the equipment from the ccr electronics to the fin strap breaking loose. How may times have you heard of someone sending his brand new mercedes benz or even mitsubishi back to the factory to be fixed and even if u did hear of any how many? on the other hand how many times have u heard of dive equipment malfunctions. i know the auto makers have research departments, labs and quality control but so should the gear manufacturers isn't this life support equipment. manufacturers no more have anything to fear except there competitors, why isn't there some kind of association that approves equipment to be used by divers. some manufactures when having a product ready for sale they just realease it and modify it as they go.(ex. dive computers with algorithms and updates) in your opinion how can we create and activate a consumer protection rights and i mean consumers not customer. i know all manufacturers say and write on there equipment that they u can kill your self if u miss use them. but what if u don't miss use them(follow requirments of training,manufacutrer's, environment etc...) and cause u a failure, i know u can sue companies in europe and states if they have problems in production companies like coca cola pepsi etc.. we have all heard of cases against multinational companies but i haven't heard of a diving company going out of business because there equipments weren't up to the durability and well built that we all dream off. does any one of u have a piece of life support equipment that you can 100% bet ur life on? WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT? keep finning Mousa Last edited by Mohamed Mousa : 14th April 2008 at 18:33.
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14th April 2008, 18:42	#2 (permalink)
David Pye CK 69+Shearwater Pursuit Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 155	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Quote: (Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa) Hello everyone <snip> manufacturers no more have anything to fear except there competitors, why isn't there some kind of association that approves equipment to be used by divers. some manufactures when having a product ready for sale they just realease it and modify it as they go.(ex. dive computers with algorithms and updates) <snip> WHAT CAN WE DO ABOUT IT? keep finning Mousa Arghhhh, no, not more regulatory bodies. It's a nice idea that we should be saved from our ignorance by someone who knows better, but it very rarely seems to do anything. It either becomes a cartel (if run by industry), or if it's government run, it becomes a pile of paperwork that allows very little to be done to improve things and requires the manufacturer to pay to certify the device, which they are often ill-inclined to do (c.f. Jetsam, Innerspace etc). Plus, the certification seems to make little difference to the 'safety' or reliability of the device. David
(Online)

14th April 2008, 18:53	#3 (permalink)
jkaterenchuk . Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2006 Location: Lititz, PA Posts: 652	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Mousa Incidently, I had a BMW that had multiple problems and some of them were repetitive. I was quite glad that they paid for all the repairs during the warantee period. No questions asked. I think your question should be more "What are YOU prepared to do about it" Each of use vote with our purchasing dollars. If the cash flow stops or slows down a well run company figures out the reasons and then spends its financial and intelectual capital to change course. Are you prepared to not purchase those VR3's? Or to openly post the problems they have had even if it results in you having no outlet to sell them in the future? If that does not work then there is always the legal recourse of a class action. So are you prepared to put the time, money and frustration into organizing and supporting such an effort? Additionally, you can turn to government intervention. Are you prepared to take that tiger by the tail and live with the decisions of a third party that might also not be exactly what you wanted? Are you prepared to bear the onslaught of people waiting to critize you for your efforts and opinions because theirs are contrary to yours or that they have a personal agenda that is contrary to your efforts. I know of only a few people such as this on Rebreather World and I applaud them for going beyond where most of us are prepared to go in expressing their opinion of what they believe to be right. If they are indeed correct then in time there will be enough "YOU's" that they will represent the majority and then they can have and effect on setting the expectations for the industry. I am not trying to place any blame or direct any comments directly at you but rather I use the YOU generically to mean each of us as individuals. John
(Online)

14th April 2008, 19:58	#4 (permalink)
Mohamed Mousa New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Egypt Posts: 11	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Quote: (Originally Posted by jkaterenchuk) Mousa Incidently, I had a BMW that had multiple problems and some of them were repetitive. I was quite glad that they paid for all the repairs during the warantee period. No questions asked. I think your question should be more "What are YOU prepared to do about it" Each of use vote with our purchasing dollars. If the cash flow stops or slows down a well run company figures out the reasons and then spends its financial and intelectual capital to change course. Are you prepared to not purchase those VR3's? Or to openly post the problems they have had even if it results in you having no outlet to sell them in the future? John Actually i still insist on the way i phrased the question because i didn't talk about an individual in any of my lines what i was talking about is a possibility of putting our hands on what could protect the customer from the manufacturer in life support equipment, there should be requirments like the ce tests in regulators but a more sophisticated one for life support eqipment with all the respect to vr3 but i look at it underwater as a failure point and plan for the loss of it while maybe a sherwater persuit diver will still plan for the loss of his computer but will be more relaxed as he didn't hear as of many failures comparing to the vr3's popular failures Again i'm not talking about vr3 don't be specific about a computer i love mine they have been working great so far. i'm talking about every other piece of equipment out there as well. we want all manufacturers to go through rough test before being able to release units. like ISC i really respected and was amazed when they published there test results. we want all producers to have to go through these types of tests and more to assure a dependable life support equipment Keep finning Mousa
(Offline)

15th April 2008, 10:32	#5 (permalink)
bletso An independent diver. Current Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: Louisville, KY, USA Posts: 222	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Actually people vote all the time. When something works they tell a couple of friends, when they are displeased, they tell a couple hundred. Dale
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15th April 2008, 11:30	#6 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 792	Re: Law and order for the world of divers The real problem when you start putting big regulations in to 'protect' people is that all the things we do now become illegal. I have an Inspiration in bits all over the bench at home with new cells, improved D-rings, changes to the harness and other mods all going in. If the dive police saw that I'd be marched off in irons - protective custody? . I'm always worried by people who want to protect me. I used to race motorcycles and my club used to kill two people a year on average so shutting us down would have saved lives. Would that have been good? OK I'd like it if they hadn't died but we knew what we were getting into and we were allowed to make that choice. Diving is far far safer but unless we want to breed out the adventure gene and just be a nation of couch potatoes some personal risks must be legal. I bought a commercial rebreather as a good starting point. I'd been modifying my OC gear for years and I never thought of it as a fixed entity. I'm glad I don't have to conform to some standards because I like to stay up to date on the ideas about and adopt those I feel are relevant to me. I don't have to wait until they are committeed into the spec and then get them like it or not. As I have said elsewhere, if I get hauled out cold having won a Darwin it was my choice to go in the water that day and I chose the kit and, mostly, I maintain it or decide who does. There will be nobody to blame but me. You can't even blame my instructors as they've been good and if I ignored something they taught me I did know it and just decide that on that day it didn't apply to me. Sorry it's a bit of a ramble. This whole business of regulation and approval bugs me. There are lots of things you shouldn't do if you don't understand the risks and understating the kit is part of understanding the risk. __________________ nigelh
(Online)

15th April 2008, 11:44	#7 (permalink)
*EBT* Apprentice Luddite Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: UK, Brighton Posts: 1,855	Re: Law and order for the world of divers No More regulations please...... user your common sense and the existing legal frameworks (things like the UK sales of goods act, whereby a product must be 'fit for purpose'). Regulation is a double edged sword, but once its in place you'll find it almost impossible to ammend in any meaningful timeframe should there be problems with it. Anyone else want to discuss the new M26 valve thread in europe? __________________ Eagles May Soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines! Rebreather World Terms of service Real diving t-shirts for real divers
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15th April 2008, 12:35	#8 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,384	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Quote: (Originally Posted by Mohamed Mousa) How may times have you heard of someone sending his brand new mercedes benz or even mitsubishi back to the factory to be fixed and even if u did hear of any how many? hello Mousa, you would really be amazed!! certain series of mercedes have had +50% return rate to garage because of malfunction... (mine returned 7 times in the first 6 months!!!!) it all has to do with bringing up the market as soon as possible, without testing all functionalities... so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems.. paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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15th April 2008, 12:36	#9 (permalink)
*Beanie* Politeness officer Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: In da house! yeah baby! Posts: 3,163	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems.. Just look at microsoft __________________ Beanie Gallery Admin & Library Assistant. www.outlawdivers.org.uk www.beandiving.co.uk www.beanengineering.co.uk www.divelife.co.uk
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15th April 2008, 12:40	#10 (permalink)
UKSteve Still a novice... Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 557	Re: Law and order for the world of divers Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) so even companies with enormous resourses have start-up problems.. paul BAA / BA Terminal 5 Steve
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