Design faults on the CCR I dive:

Mark Chase · 22nd March 2008, 18:42

In response to this question:

AM,

You and Alex swayed me. I'd like to see the list. This isn't about all RBs being unsafe in certain people's hands. It is about a few RBs being unsafe in trained hands.

So, once again:

Alex, what is your list of poorly engineered RBs that will produce widows and orphans so we can be informed.

Id like to start off offering the following on the units i have intimate experience with:

NOTE: since this thread has started other divers have kindly contributed their thoughts. As a result the following list is now open to all and not just my ideas.

KISS

Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB
Flood tolerance is very very limited.
Flood recovery is virtually zero
Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas.
No opportunity for off board gas addition
The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to
The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure
The OPV doesn't allow for a decent positive test without modification.
No HUD on standard unit
Cell changing, calibration, battery changing and scrubber removal is tool intensive
Poor history of flooding to PP02 displays

Sport KISS

Correct installation and checking of Counterlungs difficult/may be ignored due to complacency
Scrubber connections to pods and CL's prone to leakage
Absolutely not a single hope in hell of doing anything about a flood coming from the hoses/BOV, water straight into the scrubber.
Scrubber could come loose and float free causing huge WOB issues/floods on early models (new models upgraded to fix this)
Poor life from oxygen sensors (compared to majority of Rebreather's getting 12months, SK gets 6 if you are lucky, IME)

Classic Inspo

Free O ring on scrubber easy to forget
Hand set magnets rust and fail
Micro switches prone to failure
Battery's allowed to off gas in to loop
Battery box has single point failure on lid
Battery box prone to corrosion
Loom prone to corrosion
Wire in loom prone to breakage
Handset cases prone to cracking at gland
Cell 2 gets condensation dripping on it from adjacent screw.
Clutter in head makes wire damage and stress on molex connections likely
Known software faults in hand sets.
No HUD
No BOV
Manufacturing tolerances in scrubber and mouthpiece poor to the point where jamming in use is a regular occurrence.
Isolation of 02 feed to solenoid not possible
Backlighting inevitably fails eventually without any means of repair other than a new controller module.
Two handed oporation to close mouthpiece
Older units suffered battery bounce on badly designed battery box. Upgrade available
Older units had no back light to hand sets. Upgrade available
Special tools required for hose conections and cell changing

Hammerhead CCR Head for Classic Inspo and other units

All units very sensitive to battery issues. Bateries must be checked under load prior to use to avoid potential failure
Nickle hand sets prone to electrolytic effect on surface where nickle is chipped.

Anodized Aluminum Handsets:
Contact issues due to oxidation on the threads of the battery compartment.
Week depth sensors
Rebooting program issues that result in spiking of O2 at depth (free upgrade available to prevent this)
Loss of all deco info on reboot
Inability to isolate faulty primary controller if it fails and locks into the reboot cycle.
Displays can be hard to read in certain situations.
Time to surface times are not acurate.
Battery life is limited to a recomended swap with every scrubber fill.
Last stop depth is fixed at 10' / 6m.
Not possable to isolate 02 feed to solinoid
HUD dificult to see in shalow clear water and good light
Older wet switches turn on too easily and flaten the battery on the boat journy out. Dificult to turn off in rain or heavy seas. Plastic bags needed to keep hand sets dry.
Could only be calibrated in 100%02

Standard rEvo MCCR

02 injection can not be operated with either hand
Hud showing forth cell flashes red when forth cell not present getting the diver used to seeing red flashes
Very limited / No flood recovery
Limited flood tolerance
No BOV
Hand set displays only display two cells per hand set limiting comparison of cell performance
HUD design makes right hand display dificult to see on the edge of peripheral vision
Can only be calibrated in 100% 02
Milivolt display only available on calibration cycle

Meg Apex 2

Solenoid pipe gets lose and leaks. Easy to tighten, probably caused by using it as a partial handle when removing lid
Handsets can dim when hot (30deg C)
Potential bypass through cells - I have not seen this but do check them each time.
Buckles on bottom of lungs can come undone. fix by replacing with p-clips.
Angle of o2 hose to solenoid causes strain on quick disconnect.
Above average incidence of 02 solinoids jaming on
Material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets
Apeks 2.01j version had a default solenoid injection time that was inadequate to sustain any kind of PO2. One must remember to set the oxy-inject time to a safe value after every turn-on and before any dive. (this is a dis-continued version)
The 2-point cell-calibration system is prone to errors by users, and can hide cell issues. An improvement would be a single point (@ PO2 = 1.0 or so) cal system, and to then just check that the cell falls back to .21 in air.

Vision:

temp stick cable can get squeezed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia)
solenoid cannot be isolated in when stuck open
Single display for both onboard computers with proven duel failure potential
No BOV
Still has seporate 0 ring to seal scrubber inside canister
Special tools required for hose conections
Two handed oporation to open close mouthpiece
Various internal clock and software bugs in early models. Generally repaired with free down-loadable upgrades.
Bloom or dark spot on display caused by faulty batch of heat sink's. Repaired on service.
Head of unit can be very difficult to separate from scrubber.
Captive studs in scrubber head locking system easily damaged if scrubber canister is dropped.

O2ptima:

Uses Hammer Head controler so shares comon faults with HH list above
Frame, foot & backplate week. It shouldn't be necessary to have to strengthen the original
No BOV's
Loop Hose lengths cause issues with some divers

Boris:

Early OPV leakage issue -fixed (all users sent free replacement)
Some domes destorted causing leak -fixed (upgrade provided and dome redesign)
Early design Hud flooding through broken faceplate -fixed (hud redesign)
Some scrubber compression plate distortion (replacement, redesign, storing without o-ring)
Counterlung leakage (supplier, material change)

Mk15.5

Salt water ingress into secondary cable can screw up displayed ppo2
old analog gauges fail easily (especially when knocked)
Horeshoe board wiring easily corroded
poor flood tolerance/recovery

So whats up with your unit?

lizardland · 22nd March 2008, 18:47

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

KISS...

I'd add the OP doesn't allow for a decent positive test either without modification; I find a full O2 flush for cell verification difficult but that may just be my incompetence; metal screwed fixings into plastic.

Mark Chase · 22nd March 2008, 18:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I'd add the OP doesn't allow for a decent positive test either without modification; I find a full O2 flush for cell verification difficult but that may just be my incompetence; metal screwed fixings into plastic.

Your right and i have amended it acordingly.

ATB

Mark

Brainx3 · 22nd March 2008, 19:16

Hi Mark,

Nice thread. I hope that more experienced people on different units would also be encouraged to let us know about the pros and cons of their units. The Classic Inspiration had several issues indeed but APD tries to work on solutions for existing problems, and yes they might be slow and might not solve everything but on the other hand that's why the lids need to be serviced annually if frequently used.

Best Regards. Wael

PCDiver · 22nd March 2008, 19:16

Vision:

temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia)
solenoid cannot be isolated in when stuck open (loss of O2, hyperoxy)

Brainx3 · 22nd March 2008, 19:26

Hi

PCDiver "Vision:

temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) "

Now hold your horses there!!! Have you even watched the Scrubber Filling Video on APD's website??!! You need to push the Tempstick's wire inside the lid in order to be hanging all out too loose and getting it interfered with the spacer's movement. Your instructor should have taught you that during the course as well otherwise this is what APD states that should be done.

If you want to watch the videos then here's the link:

Ambient Pressure Diving Ltd.

As regarding to solenoid stuck open, it is almost the same technique which is shutting off the O2 valve and it's a drill that we learn on MOD 1.

Best Regards. Wael

CCR-Wrecker · 22nd March 2008, 19:33

Mark,
and anyone wanting to chime in

I could tell you the problems with all the other units out there but, there aren't any on mine, I bought the best!

Serously, I agree with you concerning the shortcomings on the KISS. I do however want to " stir the pot" a bit I guess.
Knowing these shortcomings, why do you still dive it?
Do you think Jetsam should fix them and offer you an upgrade? or are you accepting the shortcomings and assuming resposibility for your safety?

BTW- offboard gas is possible, I plumb right into the manifold.

Regards,
Andy

peter · 22nd March 2008, 19:33

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Classic Inspo[list]
[*]Hand set magnets rust and fail

Mine magnets are 7 years old now, still work...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Classic Inspo[list]

Cell 2 gets condensation dripping on it from adjacent screw.

???
This is only a problem if you are upside down,
do you do a lot of diving upside down?
I don’t

PCDiver · 22nd March 2008, 19:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3)

Hi

PCDiver "Vision:

temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) "

Now hold your horses there!!! Have you even watched the Scrubber Filling Video on APD's website??!! You need to push the Tempstick's wire inside the lid in order to be hanging all out too loose and getting it interfered with the spacer's movement. Your instructor should have taught you that during the course as well otherwise this is what APD states that should be done.

If you want to watch the videos then here's the link:

Ambient Pressure Diving Ltd.

As regarding to solenoid stuck open, it is almost the same technique which is shutting off the O2 valve and it's a drill that we learn on MOD 1.

Best Regards. Wael

No reason to get defensive!! I know how to do the tempstick properly but there still is a risk. There is room for improvement here.
Being able to isolate the solenoid would also help, no? Or do you PREFER doing it with the tank valve?

PCDiver · 22nd March 2008, 19:51

Mark,

will you consolidate all issues in the top post?

22nd March 2008, 18:42	#1 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Design faults on the CCR I dive: In response to this question: AM, You and Alex swayed me. I'd like to see the list. This isn't about all RBs being unsafe in certain people's hands. It is about a few RBs being unsafe in trained hands. So, once again: Alex, what is your list of poorly engineered RBs that will produce widows and orphans so we can be informed. Id like to start off offering the following on the units i have intimate experience with: NOTE: since this thread has started other divers have kindly contributed their thoughts. As a result the following list is now open to all and not just my ideas. KISS Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB Flood tolerance is very very limited. Flood recovery is virtually zero Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas. No opportunity for off board gas addition The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure The OPV doesn't allow for a decent positive test without modification. No HUD on standard unit Cell changing, calibration, battery changing and scrubber removal is tool intensive Poor history of flooding to PP02 displays Sport KISS Correct installation and checking of Counterlungs difficult/may be ignored due to complacency Scrubber connections to pods and CL's prone to leakage Absolutely not a single hope in hell of doing anything about a flood coming from the hoses/BOV, water straight into the scrubber. Scrubber could come loose and float free causing huge WOB issues/floods on early models (new models upgraded to fix this) Poor life from oxygen sensors (compared to majority of Rebreather's getting 12months, SK gets 6 if you are lucky, IME) Classic Inspo Free O ring on scrubber easy to forget Hand set magnets rust and fail Micro switches prone to failure Battery's allowed to off gas in to loop Battery box has single point failure on lid Battery box prone to corrosion Loom prone to corrosion Wire in loom prone to breakage Handset cases prone to cracking at gland Cell 2 gets condensation dripping on it from adjacent screw. Clutter in head makes wire damage and stress on molex connections likely Known software faults in hand sets. No HUD No BOV Manufacturing tolerances in scrubber and mouthpiece poor to the point where jamming in use is a regular occurrence. Isolation of 02 feed to solenoid not possible Backlighting inevitably fails eventually without any means of repair other than a new controller module. Two handed oporation to close mouthpiece Older units suffered battery bounce on badly designed battery box. Upgrade available Older units had no back light to hand sets. Upgrade available Special tools required for hose conections and cell changing Hammerhead CCR Head for Classic Inspo and other units All units very sensitive to battery issues. Bateries must be checked under load prior to use to avoid potential failure Nickle hand sets prone to electrolytic effect on surface where nickle is chipped. Anodized Aluminum Handsets: Contact issues due to oxidation on the threads of the battery compartment. Week depth sensors Rebooting program issues that result in spiking of O2 at depth (free upgrade available to prevent this) Loss of all deco info on reboot Inability to isolate faulty primary controller if it fails and locks into the reboot cycle. Displays can be hard to read in certain situations. Time to surface times are not acurate. Battery life is limited to a recomended swap with every scrubber fill. Last stop depth is fixed at 10' / 6m. Not possable to isolate 02 feed to solinoid HUD dificult to see in shalow clear water and good light Older wet switches turn on too easily and flaten the battery on the boat journy out. Dificult to turn off in rain or heavy seas. Plastic bags needed to keep hand sets dry. Could only be calibrated in 100%02 Standard rEvo MCCR 02 injection can not be operated with either hand Hud showing forth cell flashes red when forth cell not present getting the diver used to seeing red flashes Very limited / No flood recovery Limited flood tolerance No BOV Hand set displays only display two cells per hand set limiting comparison of cell performance HUD design makes right hand display dificult to see on the edge of peripheral vision Can only be calibrated in 100% 02 Milivolt display only available on calibration cycle Meg Apex 2 Solenoid pipe gets lose and leaks. Easy to tighten, probably caused by using it as a partial handle when removing lid Handsets can dim when hot (30deg C) Potential bypass through cells - I have not seen this but do check them each time. Buckles on bottom of lungs can come undone. fix by replacing with p-clips. Angle of o2 hose to solenoid causes strain on quick disconnect. Above average incidence of 02 solinoids jaming on Material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets Apeks 2.01j version had a default solenoid injection time that was inadequate to sustain any kind of PO2. One must remember to set the oxy-inject time to a safe value after every turn-on and before any dive. (this is a dis-continued version) The 2-point cell-calibration system is prone to errors by users, and can hide cell issues. An improvement would be a single point (@ PO2 = 1.0 or so) cal system, and to then just check that the cell falls back to .21 in air. Vision: temp stick cable can get squeezed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) solenoid cannot be isolated in when stuck open Single display for both onboard computers with proven duel failure potential No BOV Still has seporate 0 ring to seal scrubber inside canister Special tools required for hose conections Two handed oporation to open close mouthpiece Various internal clock and software bugs in early models. Generally repaired with free down-loadable upgrades. Bloom or dark spot on display caused by faulty batch of heat sink's. Repaired on service. Head of unit can be very difficult to separate from scrubber. Captive studs in scrubber head locking system easily damaged if scrubber canister is dropped. O2ptima: Uses Hammer Head controler so shares comon faults with HH list above Frame, foot & backplate week. It shouldn't be necessary to have to strengthen the original No BOV's Loop Hose lengths cause issues with some divers Boris: Early OPV leakage issue -fixed (all users sent free replacement) Some domes destorted causing leak -fixed (upgrade provided and dome redesign) Early design Hud flooding through broken faceplate -fixed (hud redesign) Some scrubber compression plate distortion (replacement, redesign, storing without o-ring) Counterlung leakage (supplier, material change) Mk15.5 Salt water ingress into secondary cable can screw up displayed ppo2 old analog gauges fail easily (especially when knocked) Horeshoe board wiring easily corroded poor flood tolerance/recovery So whats up with your unit? __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System Last edited by Mark Chase : 26th March 2008 at 09:23. Reason: fixed tag
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 18:47	#2 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,188	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) KISS... I'd add the OP doesn't allow for a decent positive test either without modification; I find a full O2 flush for cell verification difficult but that may just be my incompetence; metal screwed fixings into plastic. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 18:51	#3 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,470	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I'd add the OP doesn't allow for a decent positive test either without modification; I find a full O2 flush for cell verification difficult but that may just be my incompetence; metal screwed fixings into plastic. Your right and i have amended it acordingly. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 19:16	#4 (permalink)
Brainx3 Temporary Read only mode for site infractions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Hi Mark, Nice thread. I hope that more experienced people on different units would also be encouraged to let us know about the pros and cons of their units. The Classic Inspiration had several issues indeed but APD tries to work on solutions for existing problems, and yes they might be slow and might not solve everything but on the other hand that's why the lids need to be serviced annually if frequently used. Best Regards. Wael
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 19:16	#5 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Vision: temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) solenoid cannot be isolated in when stuck open (loss of O2, hyperoxy) __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 19:26	#6 (permalink)
Brainx3 Temporary Read only mode for site infractions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Borås, Sweden Posts: 274	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Hi PCDiver "Vision: temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) " Now hold your horses there!!! Have you even watched the Scrubber Filling Video on APD's website??!! You need to push the Tempstick's wire inside the lid in order to be hanging all out too loose and getting it interfered with the spacer's movement. Your instructor should have taught you that during the course as well otherwise this is what APD states that should be done. If you want to watch the videos then here's the link: Ambient Pressure Diving Ltd. As regarding to solenoid stuck open, it is almost the same technique which is shutting off the O2 valve and it's a drill that we learn on MOD 1. Best Regards. Wael
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 19:33	#7 (permalink)
CCR-Wrecker Classic KISSer #276 Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: New York Posts: 206	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Mark, and anyone wanting to chime in I could tell you the problems with all the other units out there but, there aren't any on mine, I bought the best! Serously, I agree with you concerning the shortcomings on the KISS. I do however want to " stir the pot" a bit I guess. Knowing these shortcomings, why do you still dive it? Do you think Jetsam should fix them and offer you an upgrade? or are you accepting the shortcomings and assuming resposibility for your safety? BTW- offboard gas is possible, I plumb right into the manifold. Regards, Andy __________________ "I know what you'll find, it's in your mind, it's what you want to see..." Ozzy
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 19:33	#8 (permalink)
peter New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Göteborg/Sweden Posts: 45	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Classic Inspo[list] []Hand set magnets rust and fail Mine magnets are 7 years old now, still work... Quote:* (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Classic Inspo[list] Cell 2 gets condensation dripping on it from adjacent screw. ??? This is only a problem if you are upside down, do you do a lot of diving upside down? I don’t __________________ Peter
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22nd March 2008, 19:50	#9 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Brainx3) Hi PCDiver "Vision: temp stick cable can get sqeeuzed between the spacer ring and the o-ring what could lead to gas bypassing the scrubber (hypercapnia) " Now hold your horses there!!! Have you even watched the Scrubber Filling Video on APD's website??!! You need to push the Tempstick's wire inside the lid in order to be hanging all out too loose and getting it interfered with the spacer's movement. Your instructor should have taught you that during the course as well otherwise this is what APD states that should be done. If you want to watch the videos then here's the link: Ambient Pressure Diving Ltd. As regarding to solenoid stuck open, it is almost the same technique which is shutting off the O2 valve and it's a drill that we learn on MOD 1. Best Regards. Wael No reason to get defensive!! I know how to do the tempstick properly but there still is a risk. There is room for improvement here. Being able to isolate the solenoid would also help, no? Or do you PREFER doing it with the tank valve? __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 19:51	#10 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 909	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Mark, will you consolidate all issues in the top post? __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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