Design faults on the CCR I dive:

mempilot · 23rd March 2008, 22:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy)

The answer was is in the post I made before you even asked the question

Damn these flu meds! I'm delusional! Sorry mate, my bad!

Drmike · 24th March 2008, 05:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

No reason to get defensive!! I know how to do the tempstick properly but there still is a risk. There is room for improvement here.
Being able to isolate the solenoid would also help, no? Or do you PREFER doing it with the tank valve?

We always get this dont we.

You note a design safety weakness (in this case -its too easy to catch cable and create bypass) and someone always answers 'but if you follow the training its ok'

these people are missing the point.

Theres a risk that could be avoided all together (by better design)- without relying on human reliability to avoid

Drmike · 24th March 2008, 05:38

Meg, material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets

(as witnessed several times on Jknox unit)

Drmike · 24th March 2008, 05:48

Boris:

- Early OPV leakage issue -fixed (all users sent free replacement)
- Some domes destorted causing leak -fixed (upgrade provided and dome redesign)
- Early design Hud flooding through broken faceplate -fixed (hud redesign)
- Some scrubber compression plate distortion (replacement, redesign, storing without o-ring)
- Counterlung leakage (supplier, material change)

Mk15.5

- Salt water ingress into secondary cable can screw up displayed ppo2
- old analog gauges fail easily (especially when knocked)
- Horeshoe board wiring easily corroded
- poor flood tolerance/recovery

Mark Chase · 24th March 2008, 07:35

Thanks Mike I was relying on you for this

ATB

Mark

Dive!Dive! · 24th March 2008, 08:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Meg, material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets

(as witnessed several times on Jknox unit)

Yes, Dennis Vessey warned me of this although I haven't seen it myself. Seems to be cause caused by overtightening ? The screws need to be backed off a little after they have 'bottomed out' apparently. Still, the original should be tolerant enough not to have to do that I suppose.

Dive!Dive! · 24th March 2008, 08:02

Mark
You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa.
Cheers
Steve

This list is really shaping up!

Mark Chase · 24th March 2008, 08:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!)

Mark
You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa.
Cheers
Steve

This list is really shaping up!

The three incidence I am aware of was on two diferent 2006 megs both had Shearwater controlers if that helps. I dont know what solinoid they had. The diver who prompted the comment said his unit was three years old and a Apex head.

If there was a specific solinoid that had this problem then let me know and Ill point it out on the list.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 24th March 2008, 09:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!)

Mark
You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa.
Cheers
Steve

This list is really shaping up!

I have heard of people with BOTH solenoids, and I think its more of a diver issue than a solenoid issue.. All solenoids need a ferous metal, the problem is that an water in the solenoid will ruin it quickly.. I see 2 causes

No filter on the solenoid and the swakelok QC connectors.. Before connecting The diver has to make sre that all water has been blown out.. I have seen more than one Meg diver just connect the fitting assuming it was dry..

Mark Chase · 24th March 2008, 09:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

Case in point about Manufacturer's response to issues..... RE: Hammerhead

Not sure what you mean by isolating the Primary if it fails....

Richie

Sorry missed this on the first scan.

On my three HH units if the primary went into re-boot mode it would inject a slug of 02 as it booted up. At depth this was a big problem spiking the PP02 well over 2.0

And it wouldn't stop. It just kept rebooting and injecting and i had no way of turning the damed thing off. I had a perfectly good secondary which would have allowed stress free manual injection of 02 but i couldn't use it because the primary rebooted every few seconds.

There was not enough time to get the menu down to "switch to OC" to turn it off.

Usually it would stop doing it and start working properly again in shallow water. Around 30m and up. It only ever failed in this way at depth (looking at my log book I had six such failures over two HH heads). I have various suggestions as to why this is but no solid answers. It obviously wasn't a battery issue because it worked fine in shallow water. I tried conductive grease crimping the threads and Noalox anti oxidant. Ultimate replacing the mother board in the hand set seemed to fix it but i only dived it twice more after that and I sold them both.

ATB

Mark

23rd March 2008, 22:04	#51 (permalink)
mempilot What is this..terrafirma? Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,269	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Dutchy) The answer was is in the post I made before you even asked the question Damn these flu meds! I'm delusional! Sorry mate, my bad! __________________ MEM "Da Pilot" Black holes are where God divided by zero. "If at first you don't succeed, don't dive silent." "Would you mind not shooting at the thermo-nuclear weapons." ~ Vic Deakins "Donkey's kill more people annually than plane crashes."
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24th March 2008, 05:16	#52 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) No reason to get defensive!! I know how to do the tempstick properly but there still is a risk. There is room for improvement here. Being able to isolate the solenoid would also help, no? Or do you PREFER doing it with the tank valve? We always get this dont we. You note a design safety weakness (in this case -its too easy to catch cable and create bypass) and someone always answers 'but if you follow the training its ok' these people are missing the point. Theres a risk that could be avoided all together (by better design)- without relying on human reliability to avoid __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 05:38	#53 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Meg, material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets (as witnessed several times on Jknox unit) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 05:48	#54 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Boris: - Early OPV leakage issue -fixed (all users sent free replacement) - Some domes destorted causing leak -fixed (upgrade provided and dome redesign) - Early design Hud flooding through broken faceplate -fixed (hud redesign) - Some scrubber compression plate distortion (replacement, redesign, storing without o-ring) - Counterlung leakage (supplier, material change) Mk15.5 - Salt water ingress into secondary cable can screw up displayed ppo2 - old analog gauges fail easily (especially when knocked) - Horeshoe board wiring easily corroded - poor flood tolerance/recovery __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 24th March 2008 at 06:00.
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 07:35	#55 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Thanks Mike I was relying on you for this ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

24th March 2008, 08:00	#56 (permalink)
Dive!Dive! New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 93	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Meg, material between screwthreads on handsets too small can crack - causing leaks that kill handsets (as witnessed several times on Jknox unit) Yes, Dennis Vessey warned me of this although I haven't seen it myself. Seems to be cause caused by overtightening ? The screws need to be backed off a little after they have 'bottomed out' apparently. Still, the original should be tolerant enough not to have to do that I suppose.
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 08:02	#57 (permalink)
Dive!Dive! New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Somerset, UK Posts: 93	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Mark You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa. Cheers Steve This list is really shaping up!
(Offline)

24th March 2008, 08:16	#58 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!) Mark You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa. Cheers Steve This list is really shaping up! The three incidence I am aware of was on two diferent 2006 megs both had Shearwater controlers if that helps. I dont know what solinoid they had. The diver who prompted the comment said his unit was three years old and a Apex head. If there was a specific solinoid that had this problem then let me know and Ill point it out on the list. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

24th March 2008, 09:06	#59 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,900	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!) Mark You've added 'solenoid sticking open more than average' on the meg list. Can't see who posted this, but it would be good to determine if it was on the earlier solenoids or the later Jaksa. Cheers Steve This list is really shaping up! I have heard of people with BOTH solenoids, and I think its more of a diver issue than a solenoid issue.. All solenoids need a ferous metal, the problem is that an water in the solenoid will ruin it quickly.. I see 2 causes No filter on the solenoid and the swakelok QC connectors.. Before connecting The diver has to make sre that all water has been blown out.. I have seen more than one Meg diver just connect the fitting assuming it was dry.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

24th March 2008, 09:10	#60 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,564	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) Case in point about Manufacturer's response to issues..... RE: Hammerhead Not sure what you mean by isolating the Primary if it fails.... Richie Sorry missed this on the first scan. On my three HH units if the primary went into re-boot mode it would inject a slug of 02 as it booted up. At depth this was a big problem spiking the PP02 well over 2.0 And it wouldn't stop. It just kept rebooting and injecting and i had no way of turning the damed thing off. I had a perfectly good secondary which would have allowed stress free manual injection of 02 but i couldn't use it because the primary rebooted every few seconds. There was not enough time to get the menu down to "switch to OC" to turn it off. Usually it would stop doing it and start working properly again in shallow water. Around 30m and up. It only ever failed in this way at depth (looking at my log book I had six such failures over two HH heads). I have various suggestions as to why this is but no solid answers. It obviously wasn't a battery issue because it worked fine in shallow water. I tried conductive grease crimping the threads and Noalox anti oxidant. Ultimate replacing the mother board in the hand set seemed to fix it but i only dived it twice more after that and I sold them both. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Online)

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