Design faults on the CCR I dive:

**Dsix36** · 23rd March 2008, 17:21

Optima FX:

These are corrected with the Dsix36 backplate

Original ABS backplate is weak and very prone to cracking
Original SS base mounting bar is weak and prone to bending. It is also my opinion that the base is an entanglement hazard (personal experience)

These are my other opinions on other design faults

I don't like the way the upper hoses are stretched when the unit is not on the diver
very limited on the size of tanks that can be used, now it is almost impossible to find steel tanks for it.
red and black is the only color combo

Mark Chase · 23rd March 2008, 17:53

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

First you don't dive a HH CCR you dive an Inspiration with HH electronics..

second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer..

I dived a HH/ Inspo CCR with the nickle hand sets and with the Anodized Aluminum hand sets. The spike issue on reboot has been resolved (I am told) by the new plastic hand sets but not the reboot issue. However i have only commented on the units I dived Nickle and Aluminum and i made that clear.

ATB

Mark

Mark Chase · 23rd March 2008, 18:01

Quote:

Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field)

[/list]IMVHO- The hose routing is a setup issue, mine came with hoses around the outside- go figure. Also they've removed the Pargon, currently it ships with the Mares but yes- Paragon is/was poo.

Its imposable to rout the dill outsie the unit without getting an after initial purchase plug for the manifold. I have modified my unit in several ways but I dont think thats relevent to the concept of faults with the standard unit.

Quote:

I (as a non-Inspiration diver) do not understand the pos/neg issue, I don't find the short tests that are possible an issue, I have not yet failed to detect a setup defect with the pos or neg.

As an ex inspo diver I do find the pos neg issues with the KISS a little alarming. Especialy in the light of the poor flood tolerance of the unit. However i do longish dives and perhaps am more sensitive to the issue. I know when i have had neg failures on the KISS its been very hard to do a good poss to enable fault tracing.

Also with neg tests i live in constant fear of damaging the ADV.

Quote:

Lastly the inability to connect offboard gas, lack of HUD and design WRT to flooding aren't "faults" they are design features... a fault is the diabolical PPO2 displays provided as standard which IMO are not fit for purpose (and you missed them off your list?)

Your design feature is my fault

Quote:

My list is (of actual faults common to stock KISS, IMO)-
1. Shocking electronics WRT flooding and battery changes.
2. ADV, use of, position of, reliability

Duley amended

Mark Chase · 23rd March 2008, 18:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del)

Hi Mark

I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do.

Hose routing in C/L housing: setup.
Flood tolerance/recovery: if in doubt, bailout. My understanding is it's designed to be not flood recoverable.
No offboard diluent: I don't understand, simply plumb it in through the manifold. Works great to 120m so far.
ADV design calls for a short negative test. Some 200 odd dives and mine is still as original and works fine. (Guess it'll fail this morning! )
OPV is the same issue. It's possible to do a positive pressure test, but not the same way as other units.
HUD: the lack of one in the stock design isn't a fault, it the design. Today you can put one of three on.
A dil flush is difficult without breathing in gas, but it is possible to do if one wishes to plumb in a manual add valve and line to the old O2 inlet on the dil side of the head (the brass blanking screw). OTOH, 4 breaths using the ADV or BOV gives a pretty good flush.

What I feel are design faults are/were:

The original and second gen (clear plastic) displays. They do't do as they shold, display PO2. They leak, and are fiddly to hold calibration. However, the clear plastic ones were a step towards making a better display, and they are. Then there's the VR pendant, again, a move towards a more reliable display. Also, there are after market products. These are an indication of a fault, as if the original was perfect, then there would be no market for these products.
BOV: the original Paragon was pretty poor, but this has been resolved with the change to a Mares second stage.
ADV stem O-ring. Again, this has been remediated through a dsign change.

So, seeing as a stock KISS can come with a Pendant these days, pretty well all the issues have been resolved.

I take on board your and others views on new or modified units but there are still a lot of original units out there.

Sorry I cant do this without stepping on toes. We have to be honist about the limitations of each unit.

I don't consider a modification that can be done to a standard unit to be a erasion to ignore the original issue. So off board gas via a mod is not valid. And my unit is standard with SS hoses and id like to see you rout the diluent outside the back case.

I consider some of the "design features" you observe to be important flaws. If someone asks me about the KISS I point out its poor tolerance of flooding as a critical area of weakness. It is certainly worth comparison to the rEvo or the Copis Meg both of which tolerate flooding better than the KISS.

ATB

Mark

divetheworld · 23rd March 2008, 18:16

Mark,

I suppose you had better put the potential for battery bounce on the Classic Inspo without modified battery box.

Brent

Mark Chase · 23rd March 2008, 18:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

Mark,

I suppose you had better put the potential for battery bounce on the Classic Inspo without modified battery box.

Brent

OK

jiseson · 23rd March 2008, 19:43

on those computers u are n't powering a solenoid! You would have to carry a car battery to last a year! i don't have any issue with the batteries. the frame i took care of with a DSIX shining beauty! the hoses are not an issue either. do wish the shut off for the ADV was easier to reach though.

mempilot · 23rd March 2008, 19:43

Not to be nitpicky, but since Mark quoted me in Post #1 for this thread, I will clarify something.

My intent was to have Alex post his list of manufacturing defects that can lead to the death of the diver on the unit.

Many things already identified in this thread are just, "I'd like to see this changed on my unit, or nice to haves."

Mark's quote of me was my response to Alex keeping his list of manuafacturing defects secret. That list was to be used in litigation against various manufacturers.

So, maybe this list could be more specific:

Unit
Defect
How this defect can kill the diver
Is the defect being addressed?

jiseson · 23rd March 2008, 19:47

[quote=Mark Chase;176521]I dived a HH/ Inspo CCR with the nickle hand sets and with the Anodized Aluminum hand sets. The spike issue on reboot has been resolved (I am told) by the new plastic hand sets but not the reboot issue. However i have only commented on the units I dived Nickle and Aluminum and i made that clear.

ATB
if u send ur handsets back to HH they replace the board and the O2 spike issue is a thing of the past. Aside the second deco computer i don't see at this point that i will switch to the plastic ones'-i like my bricks.

Dutchy · 23rd March 2008, 20:09

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del)

I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do.

A very dangerous definition that will keep us in the stone age for the next 20 years if we let that happen. As an embedded software engineer building x-ray systems I was trained to engineer out issues rather that just document them and rely on the user to follow instructions. Even with best intent the user will make errors or get used to it working correct until it goes wrong. A design error in that light is a decission that can/will cause avoidable damage or injury. Obviously rebreathers don't have to be well engineered because we all read instructions and follow them everytime everywhere without exception even when under stress.

23rd March 2008, 17:21	#31 (permalink)
Dsix36 Going Down? Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Deerfield Beach, Florida Posts: 1,062	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Optima FX: These are corrected with the Dsix36 backplate Original ABS backplate is weak and very prone to cracking Original SS base mounting bar is weak and prone to bending. It is also my opinion that the base is an entanglement hazard (personal experience) These are my other opinions on other design faults I don't like the way the upper hoses are stretched when the unit is not on the diver very limited on the size of tanks that can be used, now it is almost impossible to find steel tanks for it. red and black is the only color combo __________________ THE MORE THAT I LEARN, THE MORE THAT I STILL NEED TO LEARN!!!!!!
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23rd March 2008, 17:53	#32 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) First you don't dive a HH CCR you dive an Inspiration with HH electronics.. second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer.. I dived a HH/ Inspo CCR with the nickle hand sets and with the Anodized Aluminum hand sets. The spike issue on reboot has been resolved (I am told) by the new plastic hand sets but not the reboot issue. However i have only commented on the units I dived Nickle and Aluminum and i made that clear. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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23rd March 2008, 18:01	#33 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: Quote: (Originally Posted by Ben Field) [/list]IMVHO- The hose routing is a setup issue, mine came with hoses around the outside- go figure. Also they've removed the Pargon, currently it ships with the Mares but yes- Paragon is/was poo. Its imposable to rout the dill outsie the unit without getting an after initial purchase plug for the manifold. I have modified my unit in several ways but I dont think thats relevent to the concept of faults with the standard unit. Quote: I (as a non-Inspiration diver) do not understand the pos/neg issue, I don't find the short tests that are possible an issue, I have not yet failed to detect a setup defect with the pos or neg. As an ex inspo diver I do find the pos neg issues with the KISS a little alarming. Especialy in the light of the poor flood tolerance of the unit. However i do longish dives and perhaps am more sensitive to the issue. I know when i have had neg failures on the KISS its been very hard to do a good poss to enable fault tracing. Also with neg tests i live in constant fear of damaging the ADV. Quote: Lastly the inability to connect offboard gas, lack of HUD and design WRT to flooding aren't "faults" they are design features... a fault is the diabolical PPO2 displays provided as standard which IMO are not fit for purpose (and you missed them off your list?) Your design feature is my fault Quote: My list is (of actual faults common to stock KISS, IMO)- 1. Shocking electronics WRT flooding and battery changes. 2. ADV, use of, position of, reliability Duley amended __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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23rd March 2008, 18:13	#34 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del) Hi Mark I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do. Hose routing in C/L housing: setup. Flood tolerance/recovery: if in doubt, bailout. My understanding is it's designed to be not flood recoverable. No offboard diluent: I don't understand, simply plumb it in through the manifold. Works great to 120m so far. ADV design calls for a short negative test. Some 200 odd dives and mine is still as original and works fine. (Guess it'll fail this morning! ) OPV is the same issue. It's possible to do a positive pressure test, but not the same way as other units. HUD: the lack of one in the stock design isn't a fault, it the design. Today you can put one of three on. A dil flush is difficult without breathing in gas, but it is possible to do if one wishes to plumb in a manual add valve and line to the old O2 inlet on the dil side of the head (the brass blanking screw). OTOH, 4 breaths using the ADV or BOV gives a pretty good flush. What I feel are design faults are/were: The original and second gen (clear plastic) displays. They do't do as they shold, display PO2. They leak, and are fiddly to hold calibration. However, the clear plastic ones were a step towards making a better display, and they are. Then there's the VR pendant, again, a move towards a more reliable display. Also, there are after market products. These are an indication of a fault, as if the original was perfect, then there would be no market for these products. BOV: the original Paragon was pretty poor, but this has been resolved with the change to a Mares second stage. ADV stem O-ring. Again, this has been remediated through a dsign change. So, seeing as a stock KISS can come with a Pendant these days, pretty well all the issues have been resolved. I take on board your and others views on new or modified units but there are still a lot of original units out there. Sorry I cant do this without stepping on toes. We have to be honist about the limitations of each unit. I don't consider a modification that can be done to a standard unit to be a erasion to ignore the original issue. So off board gas via a mod is not valid. And my unit is standard with SS hoses and id like to see you rout the diluent outside the back case. I consider some of the "design features" you observe to be important flaws. If someone asks me about the KISS I point out its poor tolerance of flooding as a critical area of weakness. It is certainly worth comparison to the rEvo or the Copis Meg both of which tolerate flooding better than the KISS. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
(Offline)

23rd March 2008, 18:16	#35 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,586	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Mark, I suppose you had better put the potential for battery bounce on the Classic Inspo without modified battery box. Brent __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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23rd March 2008, 18:35	#36 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,700	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) Mark, I suppose you had better put the potential for battery bounce on the Classic Inspo without modified battery box. Brent OK __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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23rd March 2008, 19:43	#37 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 562	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: on those computers u are n't powering a solenoid! You would have to carry a car battery to last a year! i don't have any issue with the batteries. the frame i took care of with a DSIX shining beauty! the hoses are not an issue either. do wish the shut off for the ADV was easier to reach though. __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson* Last edited by jiseson : 23rd March 2008 at 19:47.
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23rd March 2008, 19:43	#38 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,473	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Not to be nitpicky, but since Mark quoted me in Post #1 for this thread, I will clarify something. My intent was to have Alex post his list of manufacturing defects that can lead to the death of the diver on the unit. Many things already identified in this thread are just, "I'd like to see this changed on my unit, or nice to haves." Mark's quote of me was my response to Alex keeping his list of manuafacturing defects secret. That list was to be used in litigation against various manufacturers. So, maybe this list could be more specific: Unit Defect How this defect can kill the diver Is the defect being addressed? __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot" Last edited by mempilot : 23rd March 2008 at 20:46.
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23rd March 2008, 19:47	#39 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 562	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: [quote=Mark Chase;176521]I dived a HH/ Inspo CCR with the nickle hand sets and with the Anodized Aluminum hand sets. The spike issue on reboot has been resolved (I am told) by the new plastic hand sets but not the reboot issue. However i have only commented on the units I dived Nickle and Aluminum and i made that clear. ATB if u send ur handsets back to HH they replace the board and the O2 spike issue is a thing of the past. Aside the second deco computer i don't see at this point that i will switch to the plastic ones'-i like my bricks. __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
(Online)

23rd March 2008, 20:09	#40 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 770	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy Del) I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do. A very dangerous definition that will keep us in the stone age for the next 20 years if we let that happen. As an embedded software engineer building x-ray systems I was trained to engineer out issues rather that just document them and rely on the user to follow instructions. Even with best intent the user will make errors or get used to it working correct until it goes wrong. A design error in that light is a decission that can/will cause avoidable damage or injury. Obviously rebreathers don't have to be well engineered because we all read instructions and follow them everytime everywhere without exception even when under stress. __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
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