Design faults on the CCR I dive:

Gilles · 22nd March 2008, 22:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!)

Yes, Excellent thread. ..

I agree

Quote:

Meg :

...

Angle of o2 hose to solenoid causes strain on quick disconnect.

yes this is true. This can cause inadverdent disconnection (happened to me yesterday). You have to take care to not cause too much shear stress on the Swagelock O2 feed connection.

Not sure if it's a design fault, or a "Gilles' set up" fault.

Perhaps an area that the Meg could benefit, from a human engineering point of view, is that at and near surface the HUD is not very visible. I would be happy to see ISC build a low PO2 (<0.2 only) vibrating warning.

Mark Chase · 23rd March 2008, 05:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by CCR-Wrecker)

Mark,

Serously, I agree with you concerning the shortcomings on the KISS. I do however want to " stir the pot" a bit I guess.
Knowing these shortcomings, why do you still dive it?

And the perfect unit is??? Coz i haven't found it yet.

KISS is a great unit but i am not blind to it's issues nor am i shy about voicing them.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 23rd March 2008, 05:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Hammerhead CCR

Rebooting program issues that result in massive spiking of O2 at depth

So whats up with your unit?

First you don't dive a HH CCR you dive an Inspiration with HH electronics..

second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer..

***jradomski*** · 23rd March 2008, 05:39

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

More accurate time to surface times.

Longer battery life.

Richie

Amen to the more accurate TTS..

Longer battery life?? Use better batteries.. I usually getting around 2-3 weeks of diving using Lithium 3.6v cells (depends on water temp and how much manualy flying I am doing).. Much better than I have had with any other rebreather.. My last set I got almost 4 weeks of diving out of them (alot of shallow time where I kept the po2 high manually)..

Ben Field · 23rd March 2008, 05:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

KISS

Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB
Flood tolerance is very very limited.
Flood recovery is virtually zero
Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas.
No opportunity for off board gas addition
The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to
The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure
The OPV dosent allow for a decent positive test without modification.
No HUD on standard unit

IMVHO- The hose routing is a setup issue, mine came with hoses around the outside- go figure. Also they've removed the Pargon, currently it ships with the Mares but yes- Paragon is/was poo.

I (as a non-Inspiration diver) do not understand the pos/neg issue, I don't find the short tests that are possible an issue, I have not yet failed to detect a setup defect with the pos or neg.

Lastly the inability to connect offboard gas, lack of HUD and design WRT to flooding aren't "faults" they are design features... a fault is the diabolical PPO2 displays provided as standard which IMO are not fit for purpose (and you missed them off your list?)

My list is (of actual faults common to stock KISS, IMO)-
1. Shocking electronics WRT flooding and battery changes.
2. ADV, use of, position of, reliability

Digger · 23rd March 2008, 11:36

Inspo - 2 handed operation required to close moutpiece. I don't think any rebreather should have this. The BOV on my old KISS was brilliant, and I wish I'd swapped it to the Inspo before selling it. It's a fault, and one which could cause problems in a rescue situation or delay.

Digs.

diverreb · 23rd March 2008, 11:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Amen to the more accurate TTS..

Longer battery life?? Use better batteries.. I usually getting around 2-3 weeks of diving using Lithium 3.6v cells (depends on water temp and how much manualy flying I am doing).. Much better than I have had with any other rebreather.. My last set I got almost 4 weeks of diving out of them (alot of shallow time where I kept the po2 high manually)..

I was thinking more like a year or two worth on one battery.... Kind of like the Nitek3, Nitek He, and LiquidVision, at least for the secondary. Not likely for the primary driving the solenoid, but hey, it's a wish list.

Richie

divetheworld · 23rd March 2008, 12:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer..

It would be nice if we could amalgamate the 'problem' - 'fix' coz this kind of info makes this thread really useful.

***jradomski*** · 23rd March 2008, 13:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

I was thinking more like a year or two worth on one battery.... Kind of like the Nitek3, Nitek He, and LiquidVision, at least for the secondary. Not likely for the primary driving the solenoid, but hey, it's a wish list.

Richie

Doubtful it would ever happen.. driving the HUD takes a bit more power than you would think to get good brightness out of leds..
The liquidvision only gets about 40hours give or take..

There are things that could lengthen the life of the secondary, but not on the order of a year if you really wanted all the features to remain.. if we kept the draw of the leds to 30ma max thats still under 100 hours of use (forgetting everything else)..

Andy Del · 23rd March 2008, 16:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

In response to this question:
KISS

Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB
Flood tolerance is very very limited.
Flood recovery is virtually zero
Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas.
No opportunity for off board gas addition
The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to
The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure
The OPV dosent allow for a decent positive test without modification.
No HUD on standard unit

Hi Mark

I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do.

Hose routing in C/L housing: setup.
Flood tolerance/recovery: if in doubt, bailout. My understanding is it's designed to be not flood recoverable.
No offboard diluent: I don't understand, simply plumb it in through the manifold. Works great to 120m so far.
ADV design calls for a short negative test. Some 200 odd dives and mine is still as original and works fine. (Guess it'll fail this morning! )
OPV is the same issue. It's possible to do a positive pressure test, but not the same way as other units.
HUD: the lack of one in the stock design isn't a fault, it the design. Today you can put one of three on.
A dil flush is difficult without breathing in gas, but it is possible to do if one wishes to plumb in a manual add valve and line to the old O2 inlet on the dil side of the head (the brass blanking screw). OTOH, 4 breaths using the ADV or BOV gives a pretty good flush.

What I feel are design faults are/were:

The original and second gen (clear plastic) displays. They do't do as they shold, display PO2. They leak, and are fiddly to hold calibration. However, the clear plastic ones were a step towards making a better display, and they are. Then there's the VR pendant, again, a move towards a more reliable display. Also, there are after market products. These are an indication of a fault, as if the original was perfect, then there would be no market for these products.
BOV: the original Paragon was pretty poor, but this has been resolved with the change to a Mares second stage.
ADV stem O-ring. Again, this has been remediated through a dsign change.

So, seeing as a stock KISS can come with a Pendant these days, pretty well all the issues have been resolved.

22nd March 2008, 22:17	#21 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Dive!Dive!) Yes, Excellent thread. .. I agree Quote: Meg : ... Angle of o2 hose to solenoid causes strain on quick disconnect. yes this is true. This can cause inadverdent disconnection (happened to me yesterday). You have to take care to not cause too much shear stress on the Swagelock O2 feed connection. Not sure if it's a design fault, or a "Gilles' set up" fault. Perhaps an area that the Meg could benefit, from a human engineering point of view, is that at and near surface the HUD is not very visible. I would be happy to see ISC build a low PO2 (<0.2 only) vibrating warning. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com Last edited by Gilles : 22nd March 2008 at 22:25.
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23rd March 2008, 05:24	#22 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,561	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by CCR-Wrecker) Mark, Serously, I agree with you concerning the shortcomings on the KISS. I do however want to " stir the pot" a bit I guess. Knowing these shortcomings, why do you still dive it? And the perfect unit is??? Coz i haven't found it yet. KISS is a great unit but i am not blind to it's issues nor am i shy about voicing them. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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23rd March 2008, 05:32	#23 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,895	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Hammerhead CCR Rebooting program issues that result in massive spiking of O2 at depth So whats up with your unit? First you don't dive a HH CCR you dive an Inspiration with HH electronics.. second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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23rd March 2008, 05:39	#24 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,895	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) More accurate time to surface times. Longer battery life. Richie Amen to the more accurate TTS.. Longer battery life?? Use better batteries.. I usually getting around 2-3 weeks of diving using Lithium 3.6v cells (depends on water temp and how much manualy flying I am doing).. Much better than I have had with any other rebreather.. My last set I got almost 4 weeks of diving out of them (alot of shallow time where I kept the po2 high manually).. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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23rd March 2008, 05:56	#25 (permalink)
Ben Field CK+Shearwater Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: London, England Posts: 1,571	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) KISS Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB Flood tolerance is very very limited. Flood recovery is virtually zero Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas. No opportunity for off board gas addition The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure The OPV dosent allow for a decent positive test without modification. No HUD on standard unit IMVHO- The hose routing is a setup issue, mine came with hoses around the outside- go figure. Also they've removed the Pargon, currently it ships with the Mares but yes- Paragon is/was poo. I (as a non-Inspiration diver) do not understand the pos/neg issue, I don't find the short tests that are possible an issue, I have not yet failed to detect a setup defect with the pos or neg. Lastly the inability to connect offboard gas, lack of HUD and design WRT to flooding aren't "faults" they are design features... a fault is the diabolical PPO2 displays provided as standard which IMO are not fit for purpose (and you missed them off your list?) My list is (of actual faults common to stock KISS, IMO)- 1. Shocking electronics WRT flooding and battery changes. 2. ADV, use of, position of, reliability __________________ www.hugsac.org.uk Beware Fridge Suck
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23rd March 2008, 11:36	#26 (permalink)
Digger Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Classic Kiss Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Midlands UK Posts: 206	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Inspo - 2 handed operation required to close moutpiece. I don't think any rebreather should have this. The BOV on my old KISS was brilliant, and I wish I'd swapped it to the Inspo before selling it. It's a fault, and one which could cause problems in a rescue situation or delay. Digs.
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23rd March 2008, 11:50	#27 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 566	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Amen to the more accurate TTS.. Longer battery life?? Use better batteries.. I usually getting around 2-3 weeks of diving using Lithium 3.6v cells (depends on water temp and how much manualy flying I am doing).. Much better than I have had with any other rebreather.. My last set I got almost 4 weeks of diving out of them (alot of shallow time where I kept the po2 high manually).. I was thinking more like a year or two worth on one battery.... Kind of like the Nitek3, Nitek He, and LiquidVision, at least for the secondary. Not likely for the primary driving the solenoid, but hey, it's a wish list. Richie
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23rd March 2008, 12:31	#28 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,562	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) second, the o2 spike on reboot has been fixed.. the handset needs new software loaded by the manufacturer.. It would be nice if we could amalgamate the 'problem' - 'fix' coz this kind of info makes this thread really useful. __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe
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23rd March 2008, 13:05	#29 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,895	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) I was thinking more like a year or two worth on one battery.... Kind of like the Nitek3, Nitek He, and LiquidVision, at least for the secondary. Not likely for the primary driving the solenoid, but hey, it's a wish list. Richie Doubtful it would ever happen.. driving the HUD takes a bit more power than you would think to get good brightness out of leds.. The liquidvision only gets about 40hours give or take.. There are things that could lengthen the life of the secondary, but not on the order of a year if you really wanted all the features to remain.. if we kept the draw of the leds to 30ma max thats still under 100 hours of use (forgetting everything else).. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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23rd March 2008, 16:52	#30 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 413	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) In response to this question: KISS Routing of the hoses inside the counter lung case can restrict / significantly increase the WOB Flood tolerance is very very limited. Flood recovery is virtually zero Diluent flush difficult to not possible without breathing the gas. No opportunity for off board gas addition The Paragon BOV is a lousy unit to bailout on to The ADV design doesn't allow decent negative tests and is prone to failure The OPV dosent allow for a decent positive test without modification. No HUD on standard unit Hi Mark I'd have to go with Ben, a design fault is one that doesn't do what its supposed to, or is unreliable. This removes most of your list as basic setup issues, as they do what they are supposed to, just not what you want them to do. Hose routing in C/L housing: setup. Flood tolerance/recovery: if in doubt, bailout. My understanding is it's designed to be not flood recoverable. No offboard diluent: I don't understand, simply plumb it in through the manifold. Works great to 120m so far. ADV design calls for a short negative test. Some 200 odd dives and mine is still as original and works fine. (Guess it'll fail this morning! ) OPV is the same issue. It's possible to do a positive pressure test, but not the same way as other units. HUD: the lack of one in the stock design isn't a fault, it the design. Today you can put one of three on. A dil flush is difficult without breathing in gas, but it is possible to do if one wishes to plumb in a manual add valve and line to the old O2 inlet on the dil side of the head (the brass blanking screw). OTOH, 4 breaths using the ADV or BOV gives a pretty good flush. What I feel are design faults are/were: The original and second gen (clear plastic) displays. They do't do as they shold, display PO2. They leak, and are fiddly to hold calibration. However, the clear plastic ones were a step towards making a better display, and they are. Then there's the VR pendant, again, a move towards a more reliable display. Also, there are after market products. These are an indication of a fault, as if the original was perfect, then there would be no market for these products. BOV: the original Paragon was pretty poor, but this has been resolved with the change to a Mares second stage. ADV stem O-ring. Again, this has been remediated through a dsign change. So, seeing as a stock KISS can come with a Pendant these days, pretty well all the issues have been resolved. __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
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