Design faults on the CCR I dive:

Mark Chase · 26th March 2008, 15:54

I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries.

It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time.

Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about.

AAis in the hand sets is very cool but ONLY if it works reliably.

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 26th March 2008, 16:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries.

It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time.

Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about.

AAis in the hand sets is very cool but ONLY if it works reliably.

ATB

Mark

Using the above numbers at a continuous draw of above that would mean about 4 hours of use for a 1.5v AA cell before the derating of current and cold..

The biggest derating would be that of the cold.. Near freezing you have well under 50% of the rated capacity... So I would say worse case of a single AA alkaline in near freezing water should be atleast 1 hour but less than 2 hours.. Test and reports that have been made were that a few experienced issues in near freezing conditions at 90 mins, so the ratings are reasonable..

Lithium cells wount get anywhere near the derating of Alkaline cells due to cold colditions..

jiseson · 26th March 2008, 17:24

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Using the above numbers at a continuous draw of above that would mean about 4 hours of use for a 1.5v AA cell before the derating of current and cold..

The biggest derating would be that of the cold.. Near freezing you have well under 50% of the rated capacity... So I would say worse case of a single AA alkaline in near freezing water should be atleast 1 hour but less than 2 hours.. Test and reports that have been made were that a few experienced issues in near freezing conditions at 90 mins, so the ratings are reasonable..

Lithium cells wount get anywhere near the derating of Alkaline cells due to cold colditions..

have had no issues 1hr in 37 deg water on the AA duracells- where do u get your Safts; from?

jiseson · 26th March 2008, 17:43

joe-i assume ur time frame for their duration is using the ECCR -i use mine manual O2 injection. what time do u see there?

jptaylor9 · 26th March 2008, 18:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries.

Maybe we need a wind up Rebreather, like that bloke did for radios..

Mdemon · 26th March 2008, 18:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by ChaseyForPresident)

I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries.

It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time.

Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about.

I feel the same about power in general for breathers. I would prefer to see two separate rechargeable power sources with a third lithium in reserve. The two rechargeables are charged in situ or removable for charging elsewhere. The third would provide enough power to continue to provide PO2 monitoring and alarms in the event of the other two failing.

Whether that's 2 x single 10Ah NiCD "D" cells + 1 lithium, or whether it's a pair of battery packs + lithium doesn't matter - there should be plenty of juice and something in reserve.

I'm sure I'm not alone when I roll my eyes at yet another thread on the Inspo List at the Vision turning its nose up at yet another brand of fully charged batteries. Power should not be that sensitive in life support equipment. (Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers!

)

Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9)

Maybe we need a wind up Rebreather, like that bloke did for radios..

The Baylis Breather(tm)?

Mark Chase · 27th March 2008, 00:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

(Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers!

)

Dont be silly, you havent sworn or told Mike you want to shag him.

Unless you did it by PM

ATB

Mark

***jradomski*** · 27th March 2008, 03:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson)

joe-i assume ur time frame for their duration is using the ECCR -i use mine manual O2 injection. what time do u see there?

Yes.. If you fly it manually most of the time the batteries will last a long time.. even derating for the cold.. The solenoid is a HUGE current draw.. The Backlight also is a high drain but its not usually used much during a dive..

silent running · 27th March 2008, 05:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

I feel the same about power in general for breathers. I would prefer to see two separate rechargeable power sources with a third lithium in reserve. The two rechargeables are charged in situ or removable for charging elsewhere. The third would provide enough power to continue to provide PO2 monitoring and alarms in the event of the other two failing.

Whether that's 2 x single 10Ah NiCD "D" cells + 1 lithium, or whether it's a pair of battery packs + lithium doesn't matter - there should be plenty of juice and something in reserve.

Hi Md, all the rechargeable batteries I have used lasted much less than the equivalent non-rechargeable and I have never used a 9v rechargeable in the Prism for that reason. I don't want to have to open up a 1 ata battery compartment any more than I absolutely must. So, unless the battery is potted and can be charged without breaking an o-ring seal, I don't really see the point of using a rechargeable. Isn't that part of the big idea of the Liiquivision-no battery compartment to flood=more relablity? But then again the Liquivision doesn't have to drive a solenoid and it sure would be a drag to have to replace a whole ECCR head because the potted rechageable battery won't hold a charge anymore...

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon)

I'm sure I'm not alone when I roll my eyes at yet another thread on the Inspo List at the Vision turning its nose up at yet another brand of fully charged batteries. Power should not be that sensitive in life support equipment. (Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers!

)
The Baylis Breather(tm)?

Yes, I agree. Life support gear should be able to function well with commonly available batteries under all conditions. I have not had a bad 9v alkaline out of the box yet, some last 16 hrs, some 20, which I consider an acceptable range. And why are AP and HH units so sensitive to different batteries? Is it because they are using such low volt powers sources (1.5-3.6) to start with?

PCDiver · 27th March 2008, 06:04

I also don't get it why rebreather manufacturers choose such small batteries. We all have big torches with rechargeable battery packs that last for hours. Would it be so difficult to add an external rechargeable battery pack to a rebreather in addition to a "built-in" backup battery?

26th March 2008, 15:54	#101 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,556	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries. It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time. Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about. AAis in the hand sets is very cool but ONLY if it works reliably. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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26th March 2008, 16:48	#102 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,888	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries. It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time. Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about. AAis in the hand sets is very cool but ONLY if it works reliably. ATB Mark Using the above numbers at a continuous draw of above that would mean about 4 hours of use for a 1.5v AA cell before the derating of current and cold.. The biggest derating would be that of the cold.. Near freezing you have well under 50% of the rated capacity... So I would say worse case of a single AA alkaline in near freezing water should be atleast 1 hour but less than 2 hours.. Test and reports that have been made were that a few experienced issues in near freezing conditions at 90 mins, so the ratings are reasonable.. Lithium cells wount get anywhere near the derating of Alkaline cells due to cold colditions.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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26th March 2008, 17:24	#103 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 541	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Using the above numbers at a continuous draw of above that would mean about 4 hours of use for a 1.5v AA cell before the derating of current and cold.. The biggest derating would be that of the cold.. Near freezing you have well under 50% of the rated capacity... So I would say worse case of a single AA alkaline in near freezing water should be atleast 1 hour but less than 2 hours.. Test and reports that have been made were that a few experienced issues in near freezing conditions at 90 mins, so the ratings are reasonable.. Lithium cells wount get anywhere near the derating of Alkaline cells due to cold colditions.. have had no issues 1hr in 37 deg water on the AA duracells- where do u get your Safts; from? __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson* Last edited by jiseson : 26th March 2008 at 17:25. Reason: add'l
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26th March 2008, 17:43	#104 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 541	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: joe-i assume ur time frame for their duration is using the ECCR -i use mine manual O2 injection. what time do u see there? __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
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26th March 2008, 18:06	#105 (permalink)
jptaylor9 Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London, UK Posts: 318	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries. Maybe we need a wind up Rebreather, like that bloke did for radios..
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26th March 2008, 18:31	#106 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,904	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by ChaseyForPresident) I just cant help thinking if its that bloody critical then the HH uses the wrong batteries. It should use something with adequate power reserves that is not living on the edge of failure all the time. Id rather it ran on two C cells and just worked than all this pissing about. I feel the same about power in general for breathers. I would prefer to see two separate rechargeable power sources with a third lithium in reserve. The two rechargeables are charged in situ or removable for charging elsewhere. The third would provide enough power to continue to provide PO2 monitoring and alarms in the event of the other two failing. Whether that's 2 x single 10Ah NiCD "D" cells + 1 lithium, or whether it's a pair of battery packs + lithium doesn't matter - there should be plenty of juice and something in reserve. I'm sure I'm not alone when I roll my eyes at yet another thread on the Inspo List at the Vision turning its nose up at yet another brand of fully charged batteries. Power should not be that sensitive in life support equipment. (Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers! ) Quote: (Originally Posted by jptaylor9) Maybe we need a wind up Rebreather, like that bloke did for radios.. The Baylis Breather(tm)? __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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27th March 2008, 00:11	#107 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,556	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) (Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers! ) Dont be silly, you havent sworn or told Mike you want to shag him. Unless you did it by PM ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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27th March 2008, 03:48	#108 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,888	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson) joe-i assume ur time frame for their duration is using the ECCR -i use mine manual O2 injection. what time do u see there? Yes.. If you fly it manually most of the time the batteries will last a long time.. even derating for the cold.. The solenoid is a HUGE current draw.. The Backlight also is a high drain but its not usually used much during a dive.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
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27th March 2008, 05:16	#109 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,813	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) I feel the same about power in general for breathers. I would prefer to see two separate rechargeable power sources with a third lithium in reserve. The two rechargeables are charged in situ or removable for charging elsewhere. The third would provide enough power to continue to provide PO2 monitoring and alarms in the event of the other two failing. Whether that's 2 x single 10Ah NiCD "D" cells + 1 lithium, or whether it's a pair of battery packs + lithium doesn't matter - there should be plenty of juice and something in reserve. Hi Md, all the rechargeable batteries I have used lasted much less than the equivalent non-rechargeable and I have never used a 9v rechargeable in the Prism for that reason. I don't want to have to open up a 1 ata battery compartment any more than I absolutely must. So, unless the battery is potted and can be charged without breaking an o-ring seal, I don't really see the point of using a rechargeable. Isn't that part of the big idea of the Liiquivision-no battery compartment to flood=more relablity? But then again the Liquivision doesn't have to drive a solenoid and it sure would be a drag to have to replace a whole ECCR head because the potted rechageable battery won't hold a charge anymore... Quote: (Originally Posted by Mdemon) I'm sure I'm not alone when I roll my eyes at yet another thread on the Inspo List at the Vision turning its nose up at yet another brand of fully charged batteries. Power should not be that sensitive in life support equipment. (Blimey, I'm starting to sound like Ammers! ) The Baylis Breather(tm)? Yes, I agree. Life support gear should be able to function well with commonly available batteries under all conditions. I have not had a bad 9v alkaline out of the box yet, some last 16 hrs, some 20, which I consider an acceptable range. And why are AP and HH units so sensitive to different batteries? Is it because they are using such low volt powers sources (1.5-3.6) to start with?
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27th March 2008, 06:04	#110 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 937	Re: Design faults on the CCR I dive: I also don't get it why rebreather manufacturers choose such small batteries. We all have big torches with rechargeable battery packs that last for hours. Would it be so difficult to add an external rechargeable battery pack to a rebreather in addition to a "built-in" backup battery? __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
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