Taking Responsibility for Complacency – A short rant…

Brainx3

Hi,


Totally agree with you guys, and I've been trying to make these points out through my previous postings. However, I also would like to add that the Buddy System isn't only to make buddy checks and buddy breathing, but the Buddy to identify if the diver is in in state of mind which would enable him/her to do the dive they intend to do. Back to RD and DM courses, we learned alot about stress factor in addition to indirect factors that might also lead to accidents and therefore anticipation is always the preferred way to solve the problem before it occurs. There are other factors that would also contribute to stress and may lead to accidents in not prepared properly such as Cold water, currents, light failure, dangerious underwater animals. I personally like to do things by the book and take my time before and after the dive to prepare for everything on my check list even though it takes time but taking time solving problems before they happen it much easier and simpler than taking time solving problems after they happen in water.


Best Regards. Wael

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Mark Chase

It is perhaps unfair to blame it all on the divers.

Yes its true i have read about fatalities where Darwin awards were well deserved and fatalities where it was obvious the divers skills were not up to the task. These deaths amaze me.

However.

As someone who has been through the learning curve of CCR recently (over the last four years) I believe that the machines have design issues that the training courses fudge over. They do it so well the divers can be forgiven for not understanding the enormity of the problems. The training courses work around the design issues of the unit being trained. They highlight the good bits and gloss over the bad bits.

Hear are a few I have observed.

• Blind calibration

Calibrate first ask questions later. Thats what I was taught in Mod1. After a while when we have built up an understanding of how galvanic cells work we have to start to question this logic. Why would a cell suddenly be out? They just don't deteriorate that fast under normal conditions.

For me the training should have a check on cells in air and 02 to check for problems. Since adopting this attitude i have found cell errors due to broken multi strand wires, dry joints and corrosion on connectors that I would have otherwise calibrated over.

Such pre dive checks would have no doubt saved me from countless cell errors on my inspo. Yet we are not taught to do it.

• Current Limited Cells

Not covered in my course and brought to my attention my Ann Marie. Now every dive I am checking for current limited cells but i dived for the best part of a year without any knowledge of this malady.

Whilst cell check diluent flushes were covered in the course, spiking wasn't. With the broadening of knowledge it probably is now but I wonder how many CCR divers are out there who don't live on the Internet and don't understand the issues of current limited cells.

• C02

I really didn't understand this issue. Scrubber packing pro's and cons, breathing resistance, retained C02 as opposed to scrubber failure C02, how fast it can come on, how long it can last even after getting back to clean gas. These issues were fudged over. After training I felt like a C02 hit would be mildly irritating and solved with a couple of good dill flushes and getting shallow.

Only the Internet and sites like Rebreather World opened my eyes to the bigger issues.

• Staying on loop

In Mod1 I was taught to bailout first and then sort the problem. In Mod 3 I was taught that due to conservation of gas at depth that we should stay on loop and sort things out there with, dill flushes and open loop.

This seems insane to me now. You’r already on the slope to disaster and the guidance is to try and sort it out whilst sliding further down the slope??

• 02 Off

Should all CCR have pressure transducers on the 02 bottle connected to a dive computer that is wet switch operated and linked to a HUD. The HUD is essential as they obviously weren't checking wrist units so existing passive warnings are inadequate.

• Lack of HUD

No matter what any one says, you can’t monitor your hand sets all the time. On a MCCR your expecting to manual inject and that keeps you on your toes but on an ECCR that worked perfectly for the last 150 hours it’s easy to go 5mins+ between checks.

Always know your PP02 is the bench mark of CCR training and only a HUD makes this possible.

Current HUDS need a re think

Below 1.0PPo2 my HUD flashes red. When sitting on the boat I see loads of flashing read lights so my brain switches off to flashing read lights and they don’t register as a warning of imminent danger.

I have noticed this in my self and watching other CCR divers task loaded and doing skills in shallow water. Their HUDS are flashing read like mad but they just ignore them because unless they are running pure 02 the HUDS always flash red like mad in shallow water.

Either we need another level of color warning or the vibrating back up of the Borris and Hammerhead to kick in at something like 0.2PP02

• Lack of BOV

I was taught to dill flush with C02 hits and I was taught how to bailout on to OC but no one taught me that in the event of an actual C02 hit its likely that it would not be possible to do so.

Despite all the reports of just how hard it is to bailout in an emergency we still have resistance to the one safety device that fixes, C02, Loop Flood, Caustic Cocktail, and sanity breaths.

With scrubber sticks now encouraging divers to push scrubbers further than ever before, surely efficient means of dealing with C02 should be standard



Looking back i dont beleive for one moment that my instructor was below par. I just beleive that we have all lerned a lot since 2004. The explosion of information on the internet since the advent of open sites like Rebreather World has braught easy access to a masive cross section of skills and experiance.

Great if your an internet junky with an open mind but what about all the other divers who were taught between 1998 and 2004

ATB

Mark

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Brainx3

Hi,


Mark, I would say that it is also the diver's responsiblity to follow up what standards have changed during the time just as they might be following up what's new in the market for their units. Last year I took an Advance Nitrox course with someone I wouldn't say that was professional enough, nevertheless he told me that breathing pure O2 according to IANTD standards was premitted in the depth of 6 meters. This January I took an Advanced Nitrox cross-over course with IANTD (in which I haven't finished yet) and my IT told me that the 6 meters standard was reduced to 4 meters. IF I haven't taken the cross over course or asked about what's new as for standards then I wouldn't have known so ultimately it is my responsiblity to check, and I completely agree with you that the internet facilitated the access to information and this forum in particular is a great help for all CCR divers although if the diver doesn't have internet access then he/she can always go back to the instructor who conducted their courses (Not the bad one).


Best Regards. Wael

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nigelh

Here we have to ask the question why about 'standards'.

I confess I date from the days where 2bar ppO2 was 'safe' but, as the nitrox instructor pointed out, it isn't very useful as you rack up CNS far to fast to get any time. However what I do notice in tales of oxygen hits is that often the victim realises things are too high, panics and seems to have the hit after they have corrected the fault. Conversely I've spiked it (normally caused by a pause on a descent), seen it, muttered a rude word and flushed it (exhale hard and a cross-your-heart counterlung squeeze) (love those chest counterlungs) and just carried on with the dive.

Are we encouraging panic by drilling people with urgency on lower and lower numbers and it is the panic, or at least the nervousness, that makes them more susceptible to problems? Perhaps my complacency, that is my relaxed attitude to things in the water, that helps keep me alive? Yes. Be very picky about what you dive and the checks before you get into the water but if something breaks the last thing you need is fear.

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nigelh

divetheworld

To add to Marks point. It frustrates me that any one could seriously believe that explaining design flaws and giving training to mitigate the effects can be seen as a realistic alternative to preventing or fixing those flaws in the first place. Responsibility of the diver is one thing, but responsibility of the manufacturer is another. If you dont get it by now, I doubt you ever will.

Failure modes; There is a big difference between expected and unexpected failures. A KISS needs constant attention, if you dont then bad things happen. Its a known cause and effect that is infinitely reproducable. An unexpected failure that may or may not happen is not. This is not to say that training and skills can not get you out of it 'if' you see it in time, but the point is that it should not happen if a design change can prevent it and the manufacturer is aware of it.
Sometimes, sh1t happens. Cars breakdown, computers crash. Things get broke, but these are problems that are not to be expected. And this is the crux of my point, what is reasonably expected is that a product perform as is the manufacturers intention.

Some time ago Narked at 90 brought out the Beanie holder, the first production run had a design flaw. It had the potential to cause a fairly major failure. We informed every purchaser within 48hrs and replaced them free of charge . What we didnt do was let the diver take responsibility because he/she should have a plan to get him out of the s$(*)#& when/if it all goes wrong.
It is a general duty that producers and distributors supply only products that are safe in normal or reasonable foreseeable use and that if information in their possession and as professionals, indicates that the product poses risks or potential risks to the consumer that are incompatible with the general safety requirement, then the product is recalled or modified as soon as possible.

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Mike

So as a diver that is taking responsibility for yourself, which do you do? O2 deco at 6m or at 4m like IANTD told you?

Do you know why IANTD dropped to 4m? Do you understand the offgassing difference between O2 deco at 6m vs 4m? Was the change made for reasons that are relevant to you? Or have you just put responsibility for this decision in the hands of the hierarchy of a training agency who you have likely never met?

Mike

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Drmike

The people that dont get it are more than likely people with no engineering background or understanding. I think its obvious and common sense to people who do

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CharlieT

"A KISS needs constant attention"

But one of the points several ECCR divers have made is that the extra facilities don't mean you rely on those extra facilities to the extent you end up dead when they inevitably fail on you one day.

I dive a Vision but I monitor my handset very regularly especially during the descent and ascent.

None of us diving ECCR should totally rely on our additional electronic systems.

I spoke of diligence in a previous post and I believe diligence is the most essential element of rebreather diving.

Your instructor should encourage this, mine did (Rich Stevenson, Mods 1&2, Martin Robson, Mod 3) but after this it's up to us to remain diligent.

There are simply too many people switching to CCR for the wrong reasons and with the wrong attitude.

Two guys from my ex-club approached me about going to Visions, I gave both hours and hours of my time including a 3 hour strip my Vision down etc at my house.

One took notice of my advice, the other didn't.

One has switched for the right reasons, one for the wrong ones, IMHO.

No matter what advice instructors or more experienced CCR divers offer, some people are quite determined to ignore solid advice:

This is what I advised:

1. Don't switch to diving in UK waters on a CCR unless you intend to progress to deeper/longer dives. Stay on a simpler and safer twinset.

2. Don't stop at the end of the September or October but continue to dive once or month or more in the UK sea or at one of our excellent inland sites like Stoney Cove or Vobster Quay.

Otherwise stay in your safer & simpler twinset.

3. Don't switch to CCR if you are doing this mainly to keep up with others you perceive are at your level in your group (self imposed peer pressure).

4. In UK waters, don't switch to CCR unless you're already well sorted on open circuit or have a high level of diligence already.

5. Don't switch to CCR if you're not willing to continue your training on a regular progressive basis. Booking yourself onto your next course puts you under pressure to practice the basic skills so you don't waste precious Mod 2 or Mod 3 time redoing basic Mod 1 skills you should have practiced prior to the course.

The diver who listened to me, a Rebreather World member, recently spent 6 days with Martin Robson of Eau2 Technical Training doing his Mod 2&3 in the Red Sea but spent two hours in Stoney practicising all his basic skills the week before.

Attitude is a word I read in some of this thread's posts. The right attitude and switching to CCR for the right reasons will keep us alive.

If you the diver make the wrong decisions about switching to CCR, manage your diving and unit poorly, please don't blame your instructor, buddy, diveclub or manufacturer. None of these folk are responsible for these decisions, you are.

Well done, Mark, for starting this thread. Have some green

bletso

Then why have them? MCCR seems to really be the cat's meow. ECCR's to me don't seem warranted unless one wants to do a lot of 100 msw dives. Shallower than that MCCR is simpler, and safer. IMO

Most people disagree with me but I work in electronics and have learned a long time ago water and electrons just don't like each other. Its not if but when a problem will occur.

I absolutely agree, it is the cool thing and many people have more cash than brains. When diving CCR's one just has to start from scratch and on the bottom floor. There is no training wild card. i.e. I am trimix, blah blah blah. (Yeh, too often the next thing you read is an obituary).

I have always thought that CCR's as well as technical training/diving have become darling adventures. In the stampede for numbers, too often corners have been cut, standards have been clouded. The line of agencies trying to offer their bend is now quite long. i.e. PADI, SSI, even to some extent NAUI have all customized technical approaches.

I do think there are rebreather design flaws that when the chips are down, the ergonomic design more than anything may cause someone to miss something. That said, I am convinced that the vast majority of deaths have been caused by complacency. It is an easy trap to fall into.

I don't believe in HUD's, I don't believe in BOV's. I do believe in the five P's. I do believe in very simple equipment and designs and the use of Dave's "Thumb brain connection" and of course my own MCCR. I believe in meticulous planning and execution of dive plans, having considered Tom Mount's what if's. No, I don't agree with either of them all the time, but they both are survivors, so they have done something right.

Dale

Brainx3

Hi,


Mike, eventually it's my call and for that specific issue I decided to go in between (which is 5 meters) while doing my safety stop. Training agencies have bureaucracy within their systems and that was a kind of a problem for me at one point as it cannot be overridden. If a diving organisation did not adopt new safety measures regarding something specific and I knew about new reports, evidences, references on my own then I would take that in consideration and apply that to myself. For example, PADI system doesn't have CCR programs and even as an instructor myself that doesn't mean that I would have my limits just to SCR level of diving. Some agencies react faster than others and even though bureaucracy exists almost in all of them but still there are some who would act faster than others.


Best Regards. Wael

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The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within.

I don't take crap for an answer...