Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof?

CharlieT · 22nd March 2008, 12:17

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Hey, I like this thread, I think I am going to come hang out with you folks instead of that other thread I keep getting red blobbed on!

Look on the bright side

Better to thread recklessly and dive safely

Charlie

CharlieT · 22nd March 2008, 12:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

what a stupidly worded poll

Oh dear, have you lost that famous sense of humour

At least it wasn't started by your best friend Cedric

**wedivebc** · 22nd March 2008, 14:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

There a no such standard right now for the civilian world. I was merely trying to make a point. I do think however that both the hard core military training philosophies and the civilian touchy feely approach can certainly come together to form a kick ass training system. Is there a market out there for such a system? A small one. Would it produce a very confident and safe diver? Yes.

I been thinking that in 7 years when I retire to offer such a training system. Because of the market would probably be a small one this would only be a very small part of my business idea.

Scott

Scott has your training system eliminated rebreather accidents completely? Can you say how many there have been?

sensor330 · 22nd March 2008, 15:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc)

Scott has your training system eliminated rebreather accidents completely? Can you say how many there have been?

AFAIK there have been zero deaths on rebreather due to diver error. But there has been a couple. I'm not saying that the military system is training infallible divers as we are still human.

Gilles · 22nd March 2008, 23:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld)

Sh1te poll questions, and completely pointless with those options.

It (the poll) isn't so bad. Some 75 posts so far, and has (IMV) served to indicate the merits argued (a little too emotively/vehemently) by Micjan.

BTW I don't think Alex is a traitor, and his efforts will net beneficial results for us all.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

what a stupidly worded poll

If you don't have anything constructive or useful to say (or anything that doesn't have "stupid" in it), why not just shut your keyboard (i.e. your trap).

Abbo · 23rd March 2008, 04:33

For the life of me I can't understand why you think it is a binary choice between the fatalities being the divers' faults and them being the manufacturers'. A lot of people have died and both sides need to pick up their game. What has not yet broken on my 'breather will fail on me sometime and put me in harm's way. And the dumb things I haven't yet done I'll doubtless do some day if I dive long enough. Everyone has blonde moments: I believe that the key to having as few as possible and preventing them being fatal is having the humility to admit I can have them. For that reason I believe that going around saying that the people who died on rebreathers are fools is not just unforgiveably callous to the bereaved: it is also dangerously dellusional. And if experienced divers can't dive rebreathers safely then perhaps we have a right to ask for more of rebreather manufacturers?

**UWSojourner** · 23rd March 2008, 05:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

And if experienced divers can't dive rebreathers safely then perhaps we have a right to ask for more of rebreather manufacturers?

We can ask for anything we want. But if the manufacturer tells us that it isn't there, and we choose to buy the unit anyway, should we be surprised when non-diligence has poor results?

Example: A Rebreather has no wet switches and I buy it knowing it won't turn itself on. I don't turn it on and jump in the soup. Do we say the manufacturer is at fault? Some do.

This has been beaten to death, but the basic divide is that, no matter what the manufacturer represents to you when you buy the machine, some say they should be held accountable when things go bad. They tell you NOT TO RELY ON SP MAINTENANCE. CHECK IT OFTEN. We don't, things go poorly so we sue the manufacturer? Some say yes. I do believe if enough of us used our RBs to enter a burning building, they would say the manufacturer was responsible for not detecting the heat.

The Mk6 is interesting because one promo said something like "Just put it on your back and don't worry about it." Now, if I bought one for a loved one and the Mk6 failed to bring them back, the Mk6 people would get intimately acquainted with my attorney. In this case they are representing to me that they are responsible. They have set a very high standard for themselves.

But, honestly. Did the manufacturer of the rebreather you dive honestly represent a standard of safety anywhere near that? Mine didn't.

View Poll Results: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof?
Yes, Courts & Govt. regs. keep manufacturers in check. RBs shouldn't malfunction.	27	22.50%
No. Most rebreather deaths are from user error. People are responsible for their own well being.	94	78.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

22nd March 2008, 12:17	#71 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Hey, I like this thread, I think I am going to come hang out with you folks instead of that other thread I keep getting red blobbed on! Look on the bright side Better to thread recklessly and dive safely Charlie
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22nd March 2008, 12:18	#72 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) what a stupidly worded poll Oh dear, have you lost that famous sense of humour At least it wasn't started by your best friend Cedric
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22nd March 2008, 14:38	#73 (permalink)
wedivebc FIGJAM Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Vancouver Island BC Canada Posts: 1,411	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) There a no such standard right now for the civilian world. I was merely trying to make a point. I do think however that both the hard core military training philosophies and the civilian touchy feely approach can certainly come together to form a kick ass training system. Is there a market out there for such a system? A small one. Would it produce a very confident and safe diver? Yes. I been thinking that in 7 years when I retire to offer such a training system. Because of the market would probably be a small one this would only be a very small part of my business idea. Scott Scott has your training system eliminated rebreather accidents completely? Can you say how many there have been? __________________ Cheers, Dave.... Man is the only animal burdened with the knowledge he will eventually die
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22nd March 2008, 15:44	#74 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 564	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by wedivebc) Scott has your training system eliminated rebreather accidents completely? Can you say how many there have been? AFAIK there have been zero deaths on rebreather due to diver error. But there has been a couple. I'm not saying that the military system is training infallible divers as we are still human.
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22nd March 2008, 23:15	#75 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by divetheworld) Sh1te poll questions, and completely pointless with those options. It (the poll) isn't so bad. Some 75 posts so far, and has (IMV) served to indicate the merits argued (a little too emotively/vehemently) by Micjan. BTW I don't think Alex is a traitor, and his efforts will net beneficial results for us all. Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) what a stupidly worded poll If you don't have anything constructive or useful to say (or anything that doesn't have "stupid" in it), why not just shut your keyboard (i.e. your trap). __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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23rd March 2008, 04:33	#76 (permalink)
Abbo Going down on Meg Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 427	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? For the life of me I can't understand why you think it is a binary choice between the fatalities being the divers' faults and them being the manufacturers'. A lot of people have died and both sides need to pick up their game. What has not yet broken on my 'breather will fail on me sometime and put me in harm's way. And the dumb things I haven't yet done I'll doubtless do some day if I dive long enough. Everyone has blonde moments: I believe that the key to having as few as possible and preventing them being fatal is having the humility to admit I can have them. For that reason I believe that going around saying that the people who died on rebreathers are fools is not just unforgiveably callous to the bereaved: it is also dangerously dellusional. And if experienced divers can't dive rebreathers safely then perhaps we have a right to ask for more of rebreather manufacturers?
(Online)

23rd March 2008, 05:06	#77 (permalink)
UWSojourner Pacific Northwest Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Portland Oregon Posts: 556	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) And if experienced divers can't dive rebreathers safely then perhaps we have a right to ask for more of rebreather manufacturers? We can ask for anything we want. But if the manufacturer tells us that it isn't there, and we choose to buy the unit anyway, should we be surprised when non-diligence has poor results? Example: A Rebreather has no wet switches and I buy it knowing it won't turn itself on. I don't turn it on and jump in the soup. Do we say the manufacturer is at fault? Some do. This has been beaten to death, but the basic divide is that, no matter what the manufacturer represents to you when you buy the machine, some say they should be held accountable when things go bad. They tell you NOT TO RELY ON SP MAINTENANCE. CHECK IT OFTEN. We don't, things go poorly so we sue the manufacturer? Some say yes. I do believe if enough of us used our RBs to enter a burning building, they would say the manufacturer was responsible for not detecting the heat. The Mk6 is interesting because one promo said something like "Just put it on your back and don't worry about it." Now, if I bought one for a loved one and the Mk6 failed to bring them back, the Mk6 people would get intimately acquainted with my attorney. In this case they are representing to me that they are responsible. They have set a very high standard for themselves. But, honestly. Did the manufacturer of the rebreather you dive honestly represent a standard of safety anywhere near that? Mine didn't. Last edited by UWSojourner : 23rd March 2008 at 11:38.
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