Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof?

mempilot · 21st March 2008, 22:02

I agree with Don and Adrian. I don't think we need a Fed standing over us making sure we run a checklist. Fear is a pretty good motivator. So is respect. Respect the danger and fear the consequences of not doing so.

Per another thread, I am still waiting for some of the vocal members of the board to post their list of actively used RBs that supposedly are killers, no matter how much respect and fear forces their users to do it right.

**nthaggard** · 21st March 2008, 22:48

We use checklists in aviation because they give us a systematic approach to identify equipment problems and determine whether or not the "mission" can be carried out with reasonable success. IMHO this same logic applies to Rebreather's. Especially if you are diving various types of equipment (OC, OC Tek, SCR, CCR) in different conditions like Caves/Springs or Wrecks/Reefs from boats. I agree with Don, Adrian and Eric that checklists should be used faithfully for the reasons Don listed above. It won't prevent all accidents but if it saves one life it is worthwhile.

I don't think the Govt should be setting and policing the standards though, it should be the industry and divers self regulating ourselves. Besides as long as we are human equipment will never be totally dummyproof.

mempilot · 21st March 2008, 23:12

Well said Neill.

Yesterday, we taxid our aircraft out for an important shakedown mission. It's purpose is not important to the discussion other than we had a few very important and high profile people with a very important job on board. The preflight checks went flawlesslessly. The pre-taxi checks went as planned. We were holding short of the runway, and when cleared for takeoff, we had one last checklist to do; the Before Takeoff Checklist. This short little gem is a last check of stored faults and a takeoff configuration check. Guess what? In the ten minutes between the pre-taxi and the before takeoff checks, the mach trim system and auto slats system that drive off an air data computer showed a single-channel failure upon the last check. Most systems are redundant, so a single-channel failure only shows on recall of the stored faults. The significance of forgetting to do this check is that if we had gone airborne, climbed to altitude and accelerated to cruise speed, and the second channel failed, the aircraft could have been in peril. Why? Because there was moderate to severe turbulence at most flight levels yesterday in the area of our mission. This system analyzes the dynamics of flight and implements limitations on the aircraft. Without them, the pilots could over fly these limits and cause damage to the aircraft, or worse. The adhearance to checklists identified the problem prior to takeoff. The clearence was cancelled. The problem was addressed and corrected. The mission continued, just slightly delayed.

Checklists. They aren't just for aircraft anymore. I'm more fearful of my rebreather trying to kill me than my aircraft, yet the aircraft has 10-fold the mundane checks. If you aren't using a checklist with your Rebreather for assembly, pre-dive, post-dive, repeat if neccessary, and possibly even disassembly, then ask yourself, WHY?

Sorry for the TRUE story, but I felt it appropriate to discussions of late.

Signing off,

Eric

jiseson · 22nd March 2008, 00:55

should divers' be dummy proof?

WhiskeyBravo · 22nd March 2008, 05:51

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

OHHHHHH not too bias and mis leading then

Ill obstain.

How about some other questions

1. Should we remove all safety devices and solenoids from CCRs thus making the units more reliable and the divers totaly responsible for their own survival?

2. If a unit is fitted with solenoids and computerized controllers is it wrong to expect them to fail safe as a minimum standard?

3. Should new CCR divers be forced to do at least 100hours on MCCR before being allowed to dive a ECCR?

4. Do ECCR lul divers into a false sense of security?

5. Does the technology really exist to make an idiot proof CCR?

6. Should ALL CCR be fitted with a industry standard sealed recording black box?

ATB

Mark

1. YES
2. YES
3. YES
4. YES
5. NO
6. NO
Excellent set of questions. You should start another poll.

RonMicjan · 22nd March 2008, 07:07

Hey, I like this thread, I think I am going to come hang out with you folks instead of that other thread I keep getting red blobbed on!

silent running · 22nd March 2008, 09:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330)

Training, Training, Training! That's what it boils down to. I was very fortunate in that all for my initial training was done through the military. The military has a way of weeding out the so called "idiots".

I had to preliminary dive course to become a diver with started with 40 guys and ended with 7. So to put in in prospective there were five other unit across the country which ran the same preliminary course so that would have been 200 candidates across Canada and after the weeding out process ended with approximately 35 made it through. Out of those 35 only the top 20 would be selected for initial training with is equivalent to advanced open water on civy street.

So my point is there are individuals out there that probably shouldn't be diving O/C let alone rebreathers. What it boils down to is the almighty dollar. Lets face it, diving is a business and instructors wouldn't make a living if they started failing lots of people and/or worst started out right refusing to train them. I don't believe for one minute that any sort of dummy proof system would make diving safer.

Scott Ensor

Hi Scott, yes it's great that the military trained you so thoroughly, but how can this kind of standard work in the civilian world? I too think training can make all the difference, but should a CCR certification cost $70,000, with no refund? That would certainly help keep the punters out of the water, but is it really necessary? Plenty of experienced CCR divers who might very well have passed the test have left us prematurely. So isn't there some sort of compromise that can be reached which discourages impulsive types from the sport, but which also provides a safety margin for us busy, falible preoccupied civilians? -Andy

sensor330 · 22nd March 2008, 11:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Scott, yes it's great that the military trained you so thoroughly, but how can this kind of standard work in the civilian world? I too think training can make all the difference, but should a CCR certification cost $70,000, with no refund? That would certainly help keep the punters out of the water, but is it really necessary? Plenty of experienced CCR divers who might very well have passed the test have left us prematurely. So isn't there some sort of compromise that can be reached which discourages impulsive types from the sport, but which also provides a safety margin for us busy, falible preoccupied civilians? -Andy

There a no such standard right now for the civilian world. I was merely trying to make a point. I do think however that both the hard core military training philosophies and the civilian touchy feely approach can certainly come together to form a kick ass training system. Is there a market out there for such a system? A small one. Would it produce a very confident and safe diver? Yes.

I been thinking that in 7 years when I retire to offer such a training system. Because of the market would probably be a small one this would only be a very small part of my business idea.

Scott

PCDiver · 22nd March 2008, 11:38

Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson)

should divers' be dummy proof?

The question should be: "Should divers be rebreather proof". Brains is only part of the equation. Skills, training, ... are the other part.

Drmike · 22nd March 2008, 11:40

what a stupidly worded poll

View Poll Results: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof?
Yes, Courts & Govt. regs. keep manufacturers in check. RBs shouldn't malfunction.	27	22.50%
No. Most rebreather deaths are from user error. People are responsible for their own well being.	94	78.33%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

21st March 2008, 22:02	#61 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,470	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? I agree with Don and Adrian. I don't think we need a Fed standing over us making sure we run a checklist. Fear is a pretty good motivator. So is respect. Respect the danger and fear the consequences of not doing so. Per another thread, I am still waiting for some of the vocal members of the board to post their list of actively used RBs that supposedly are killers, no matter how much respect and fear forces their users to do it right. __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"
(Offline)

21st March 2008, 22:48	#62 (permalink)
nthaggard Supporting Member Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 29	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? We use checklists in aviation because they give us a systematic approach to identify equipment problems and determine whether or not the "mission" can be carried out with reasonable success. IMHO this same logic applies to Rebreather's. Especially if you are diving various types of equipment (OC, OC Tek, SCR, CCR) in different conditions like Caves/Springs or Wrecks/Reefs from boats. I agree with Don, Adrian and Eric that checklists should be used faithfully for the reasons Don listed above. It won't prevent all accidents but if it saves one life it is worthwhile. I don't think the Govt should be setting and policing the standards though, it should be the industry and divers self regulating ourselves. Besides as long as we are human equipment will never be totally dummyproof. __________________ ______________________________________________ Neill "If you're gonna be stupid...you better be tough"
(Offline)

21st March 2008, 23:12	#63 (permalink)
mempilot Eric Stadtmueller Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Ft. Lauderdale Posts: 1,470	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Well said Neill. Yesterday, we taxid our aircraft out for an important shakedown mission. It's purpose is not important to the discussion other than we had a few very important and high profile people with a very important job on board. The preflight checks went flawlesslessly. The pre-taxi checks went as planned. We were holding short of the runway, and when cleared for takeoff, we had one last checklist to do; the Before Takeoff Checklist. This short little gem is a last check of stored faults and a takeoff configuration check. Guess what? In the ten minutes between the pre-taxi and the before takeoff checks, the mach trim system and auto slats system that drive off an air data computer showed a single-channel failure upon the last check. Most systems are redundant, so a single-channel failure only shows on recall of the stored faults. The significance of forgetting to do this check is that if we had gone airborne, climbed to altitude and accelerated to cruise speed, and the second channel failed, the aircraft could have been in peril. Why? Because there was moderate to severe turbulence at most flight levels yesterday in the area of our mission. This system analyzes the dynamics of flight and implements limitations on the aircraft. Without them, the pilots could over fly these limits and cause damage to the aircraft, or worse. The adhearance to checklists identified the problem prior to takeoff. The clearence was cancelled. The problem was addressed and corrected. The mission continued, just slightly delayed. Checklists. They aren't just for aircraft anymore. I'm more fearful of my rebreather trying to kill me than my aircraft, yet the aircraft has 10-fold the mundane checks. If you aren't using a checklist with your Rebreather for assembly, pre-dive, post-dive, repeat if neccessary, and possibly even disassembly, then ask yourself, WHY? Sorry for the TRUE story, but I felt it appropriate to discussions of late. Signing off, Eric __________________ Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot" Last edited by mempilot : 21st March 2008 at 23:17.
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 00:55	#64 (permalink)
jiseson DSIX/O2PTIMA Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: long island,ny Posts: 558	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? should divers' be dummy proof? __________________ *Jonathan D Iseson*
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22nd March 2008, 05:51	#65 (permalink)
WhiskeyBravo New Member Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Portland, OR, USA Posts: 13	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) OHHHHHH not too bias and mis leading then Ill obstain. How about some other questions 1. Should we remove all safety devices and solenoids from CCRs thus making the units more reliable and the divers totaly responsible for their own survival? 2. If a unit is fitted with solenoids and computerized controllers is it wrong to expect them to fail safe as a minimum standard? 3. Should new CCR divers be forced to do at least 100hours on MCCR before being allowed to dive a ECCR? 4. Do ECCR lul divers into a false sense of security? 5. Does the technology really exist to make an idiot proof CCR? 6. Should ALL CCR be fitted with a industry standard sealed recording black box? ATB Mark 1. YES 2. YES 3. YES 4. YES 5. NO 6. NO Excellent set of questions. You should start another poll.
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22nd March 2008, 07:07	#66 (permalink)
RonMicjan Cap Ron scourge of the NW Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cape Disapointment, The Graveyard of the Pacific Posts: 1,100	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Hey, I like this thread, I think I am going to come hang out with you folks instead of that other thread I keep getting red blobbed on! __________________ Marine rescue, towing and salvage. Interfering with natural selection since 1983. www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc. www.seatowpdx.com The Summer Job
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22nd March 2008, 09:54	#67 (permalink)
silent running Mature mouth breather Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: U.S.A. Brooklyn, New York Posts: 1,832	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by sensor330) Training, Training, Training! That's what it boils down to. I was very fortunate in that all for my initial training was done through the military. The military has a way of weeding out the so called "idiots". I had to preliminary dive course to become a diver with started with 40 guys and ended with 7. So to put in in prospective there were five other unit across the country which ran the same preliminary course so that would have been 200 candidates across Canada and after the weeding out process ended with approximately 35 made it through. Out of those 35 only the top 20 would be selected for initial training with is equivalent to advanced open water on civy street. So my point is there are individuals out there that probably shouldn't be diving O/C let alone rebreathers. What it boils down to is the almighty dollar. Lets face it, diving is a business and instructors wouldn't make a living if they started failing lots of people and/or worst started out right refusing to train them. I don't believe for one minute that any sort of dummy proof system would make diving safer. Scott Ensor Hi Scott, yes it's great that the military trained you so thoroughly, but how can this kind of standard work in the civilian world? I too think training can make all the difference, but should a CCR certification cost $70,000, with no refund? That would certainly help keep the punters out of the water, but is it really necessary? Plenty of experienced CCR divers who might very well have passed the test have left us prematurely. So isn't there some sort of compromise that can be reached which discourages impulsive types from the sport, but which also provides a safety margin for us busy, falible preoccupied civilians? -Andy
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 11:13	#68 (permalink)
sensor330 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Victoria, British Columbia, Canada Posts: 585	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Scott, yes it's great that the military trained you so thoroughly, but how can this kind of standard work in the civilian world? I too think training can make all the difference, but should a CCR certification cost $70,000, with no refund? That would certainly help keep the punters out of the water, but is it really necessary? Plenty of experienced CCR divers who might very well have passed the test have left us prematurely. So isn't there some sort of compromise that can be reached which discourages impulsive types from the sport, but which also provides a safety margin for us busy, falible preoccupied civilians? -Andy There a no such standard right now for the civilian world. I was merely trying to make a point. I do think however that both the hard core military training philosophies and the civilian touchy feely approach can certainly come together to form a kick ass training system. Is there a market out there for such a system? A small one. Would it produce a very confident and safe diver? Yes. I been thinking that in 7 years when I retire to offer such a training system. Because of the market would probably be a small one this would only be a very small part of my business idea. Scott
(Offline)

22nd March 2008, 11:38	#69 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 968	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? Quote: (Originally Posted by jiseson) should divers' be dummy proof? The question should be: "Should divers be rebreather proof". Brains is only part of the equation. Skills, training, ... are the other part. __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
(Online)

22nd March 2008, 11:40	#70 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,323	Re: Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof? what a stupidly worded poll __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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