Should Rebreathers be Dummyproof?

jkaterenchuk

Let me throw out an example of what can and does happen when Manufacturers do not take it upon themselves to cooperatively resolve the issues of safety. Its not exactly the same but close enough to illustrate my points.

I have some experience working in the Mattress industry for a manufacturer. In June this year the Federal goivernment put into effect a very stringent flamability law which was designed to prevent people from dying from a burning mattress that they were sleeping on.

They made the announcement of this new law a few years back and at the time the industry rejected it....saying some of the same things....idiots keep getting smarter, their not serious, it cant be done. Most industry insiders already know that this law was the result of roughly 12 death per year and usually because the person fell asleep while smoking in their bed. I was involved in many board meeting in which the "What's the big deal" and "its a small number of deaths" were vented when considering the impact this law might have on company profitability. Surely what idiot has not heard that its not wise to smoke in bed?.....translate to "not turn on you control, O2 valve...etc".

When it became apparent that the law was going to happen all the manufactures then screemed that they would have to go out of business, that the costs would skyrocket and it would have to be passed onto the consumer, that the industry would be ruined as no one could make a mattress that would pass and the cost of the materials to make it would be sky high.

Even with a strong lobby group the government stood firm on implementing of the law. They did delay its implementation but told the industry they would need to comply.

What ended up happening is the industry came togeather. The manufacturers and the supplier of material started groups to work togeather to find solutions to the cost issues and the manufacturing issues. In the end they were able to produce a mattress that met the new law and the cost passed onto the customer was in the the area of 10%.

I take away from this example the lesson that it is not a question of if there will be some 3rd party intervention in the future upon the Rebreather industry to improve safety but rather when and how.

The manufacturers might be well advised to take collective proactive action to address the issues.

John

ReikiMaster

is this the first alpinist poll? and that does only require a yes or no answer

mempilot

This poll is flawed.

Government regulations won't make RBs dummyproof and keep them from malfunctioning. Get real. Does the FAA, NTSB, JAA, DOT, or any other government regulatory agency's rules and regulations make airplanes, trucks, ships, or other regulated equipment fool proof? Of course not.

Most Rebreather deaths are from user error. But...

There need to be options other than these two, because they are not mutually exclusive, nor the only two viable options.

How about a poll that has at least these options?

1. Our sport, it's manufacturers, and it's participants, need to be government regulated to optimize safety.

2. Status quo. Self regulation through training agencies and adopted standards and protocols are appropriate for a specialized individual activity, and the market will develop safer units through free competition.


Those who would choose number one would need to understand that certain freedoms would be limited much more so than they are now. The government may decide what depths are deemed safe, what locations are deemed safe, and obviously only conforming units would be available for purchase. The last point may be fine, but this can be accomodated through free market competition as well.

The number of deaths would only be reduced in the the category of equipment related failures or weaknesses, a very small percentage of overal Rebreather deaths. The number of deaths would possibly further be reduced by the government telling divers that they can't dive where you do today.

Just my thoughts.

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Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"

ReikiMaster

the question is, the year after the regulation came in did 12 less people die from fires in bed?

possibly, but not due to the fire retardent mattresses, more likely from less people smoking and therefore less people smoking in bed.

just because there is a better safer matress on the market does not mean everyone throws out the old ones and start using the new one. It will take 5-15 years to replace all the mattresses out there and by then smoking will probably have been totally banned and noone will be smoking in bed,

so have they 'solved' a problem that was going to go away over time anyway?

or will the cases of deaths by fire acutally continue as the number of 'not idiots' responsibly buy a new mattress but give the old one away to a potential idiot who then uses for another 5-10 years rather than buy a new safer one, as they can save the money and spend it on cigarettes.

(ie what happens to all the current perfectly legal Rebreather's that are in use)

Gilles

If the answer to this were "No", that would be unfortunate for me, and at least 94% of the population.

Solenoids aren't really safety devices. Removing them (without replacing with a leaking valve) would really put people on a narrow ledge.

That deserves merit IMV

These statements ring true as well.

I voted both options, as both are correct.

Rebreather's should work with an adequate amount of human engineering design. On the other hand, this can only be achieved by learning and evolving from past experience and designs. Evolutionary process (i.e. competition, choice, and survival of the fittest) should be encouraged.

Litigation and regulation has to be applied in a limited manner, applying only to obvious cases of negligence or worse. Open forums (such as this one) facilitates the info-spreading, discussion, and learning process, creating significant offset to the need of litigation (IMV). Rebreather's are getting better, and those of us here who participate in these forums are all learning better practise, better units, etc.

IMV there's too many bureau-rats out there that are not obliged to create value to maintain their existence, but only to remain politically correct and follow their little due process. CE will make Rebreather's legal, but will it actually make Rebreather's better?

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Gilles
http://www.dirrebreather.com

Meng_Tze

One could argue that by not understanding the 'idiot clientele', 'idiots' start to look like 'bigger idiots' as time progresses.
But yes I am not surprised to see that comment come from him.

silent running

Hello RM, sorry but I don't understand the relevance of all these conjectures. What difference does it make whether there are exactly 12 fewer deaths per year after the introduction of the new mattresses? Is even 1 less death not worth a 10% increase in the cost of the product and savings in legal costs and grief? And what does the fact that somebody can still die from smoking and falling asleep on an old mattress have to do with the worth of trying to make new ones more flame retardant?

And I highly doubt that anyone in the USA will propose confiscating older CCRs that are not safety compliant. When has this been done with a consumer product? They haven't done it with mattresses and there's many more of those out there than any pc of dive gear. Hell, they even let people register cars from the 50's that have pointy metal dashboards...

And who ever said anyone was trying to "solve" completely any problem related to human failings? The vast majority of people on here advocating for increased safety are looking for modest improvements to existing designs, not radical redesigns. Most reasonable people, whether on juries or contemplating buying a CCR, will be impressed by any reasonable attempt by a manufacturer who makes the extra effort to increase their safety, be it with an ECCR auto-on upon change in PO2 or an airbag in a car. -Andy

UWSojourner

I think the "idiot" and "dummy" words are meant in the spirit of that saying, or bumper sticker, that says "Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot."

Everyone here knows that those who have lost their lives are not "idiots", "dummies", or somehow less capable. The sobering thing for me is that I know many were more capable divers than I ever hope to be.

As for Leon, my sense is that he takes accidents on his unit very seriously. I know he has taken steps to improve Meg instruction, and that the group at ISC strives for continuous improvement. Don't read too much into idle comments that might show frustration at some of the simple things that might have caused accidents (gas off, expired scrubber, ... ).

Brainx3

Hi,

I think that the term "Idiot" would apply mainly to someone who has decided NOT to follow safety instructions when diving. Whether that person has ignored manufacturer's safety instructions or ignored training instructions then the diver would have crossed the safety line and that is something he/she has DECIDED, therefore the rebreather cannot prevent the diver from diving no matter what safety feature it might have. Alarms already exist in most of current units although some people choose simply to ignore or sometimes misinterpret. No matter if you are experienced diver or not, if you think that you are in no shape to dive or not prepared according to safety rules then DON'T TAKE THINGS FOR GRANTED and go diving. Take your time to prepare your unit and your dive plane. Don't wait until things start breaking until you decide to service them. Don't rush yourself into something you are not prepared to deal with. All these simple rules are tough on OC OW and RD Levels. I think those who don't want to follow these simple rules and complaining about safety issues under the name of "Safety" are simply trying to look for a way to justify their neligence.


Best Regards. Wael

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The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within.

Sooner or later I'll be cracking your market and end your game.

I don't take crap for an answer...

divetheworld

Again I find myself quoting Chasey.... Spot on mate

Sh1te poll questions, and completely pointless with those options.

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