Rebreather World Traitor

Drmike

Like I said I believe they all do what they believe is right. I am sure it is their opinions that their units are perfectly safe if used as instructed - of that I have no reason to doubt. Their opinion though may not be the same as another expert in the field - which is exactly why we have expert witnesses in courts

All this vilifying of mnf is a bit imature. They do focus on profits, profits is one of the thing they have to balance against design complexity incl possiby safety levels. Its all a game of balance. Do they always make the right balance? This is the question

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Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

PCDiver

Marc, what do you expect from APD? That they give away Vision upgrades to all Classic users for free? Or perhaps that they make them available at a reduced price?

Free visions ... never going to happen, this is real life not dreamland.
Upgrade path at a reduced price ... yep, that is available.

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CharlieT

Mark

I've always thanked you for sharing the many problems you've had with various bits of kit with us.

But there is quite a long list, isn't there!

Hammerhead is one part, albeit a very important one, of your current rebreather but it's not a whole system. APD design and manufacture whole systems at a volume no one else comes close to.

I am sorry you feel APD have let you down but as they've made more CCR units than everyone else during a 10 year period, the fact that a percentage of your customer base ends up disenchanted is regrettable but probably inevitable?

CharlieT

I am glad to read you consider "All this vilifying of mnf is a bit immature"

Can those who do this now stop doing it and replace this with constructive, fact based criticism, pretty please?

Drmike

hahah - that would be a first on this site!


Fact based criticism here is in my bitter experience almost always countered by emotion based bias self deluding defense almost never by fact based argument

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

divetheworld

Interestingly, when discussing product improvements and recalls;

MEGA Brands have received 19 reports of magnets coming loose out of 1.1 million components sold, including one report of a 3-year-old boy receiving medical treatment to remove a magnet from his nasal cavity and one report of an 18-month-old boy with a magnet in his mouth, which was not swallowed.

Product recalls are generally publicised well, a recent list for the UK is published here -> Trading Standards Central - Trading Standards and Consumer Protection information for the UK

The majority of them related to consumer goods (not foods) are recalls due to the 'potential' risk rather than incident.
One manufacturer even goes as far as to state their recall is a 'precautionary measure' while they investigate.

Perhaps they are over reacting

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Drmike

guess that depends on what you think a single human life is worth. Not a lot based on some of the replies here

__________________
Cave diving is a sport
Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

Tino de Rijk

Is this a question or a statement..? I never know with you...

If it's a question: yes, they might very well be forced out of business, and possibly inmediately, as CE rating (law) is in this case linked to adhering to standards (at least the EN14143; EN16508, as I mentioned several times, is subject to discussion). Law tends to be black & white, one size fits all. So a verdict for one = a verdict for all, very likely.
There is not such a thing as "almost compliant", although you can file for exemptions on minor issues, and all do that.

As to "could current mnf design compliant Rebreather's": they DO already, wether you like it or not. All euro Rebreather's carry the CE rating, and are subject to EN14143, and contrary to popular belief that is not a matter of just self-proclaiming to be that, but an independent third party comes in to verify that, scrutinising all aspects, including design and fault handling process (e.g. ISO9002). It is also repetive, and mandatory for review after any significant design change. Quite costly in itself already, so the USA guys already have a cost and process and flexibility advantage there (and then there is our high VAT's...). A Euro manufacturer CAN'T bring out rapid changes, even if he wants to - at least not if they are major enough to affect CE/EN qualification. It's good to keep that in mind when you ask: "why don't they come out with a solution to that problem more rapidly...?". They have to weight cost or re-certification against benefit to customers from a commercial point of view, whether we like it or not.
This is no pro bono business. So they also tend to aggregate/consolidate a bunch of changes into one "next release", and doing the re-cert on the whole thing.

Alex is not in full production yet (at least not from what I see here on Rebreather World, or on the DeepLife site), so it doesn't affect him - yet. He is much more flexible in this stage of his company.

We have well passed beyond the bogus Italian backpack CE rating (almost 10 years ago). the standard has also progressed (latest version = 2003).
rEvo had to temporarily move its business to Switzerland before applying for the CE rating, because CE does not apply in Switzerland (not part of EU).

Now: is it simple to implement EN16508 in full? Nope, it is not. My personal view. Alex makes it sound simple, but it really is not; again, just my view. I also doubt it is necesary and consider it overkill (only 61508; not 14143), but that's another discussion, and my views on that can be seen in last year's loooong thread on it, so no need to repeat them again & again. That is also not the subject discussed here, although admittedly related.

would they still be marketable? doubt that as well, given the expected volumes. I don't buy in to Alex "1000 dollar" claim.
But that's just my view.
People still think that e.g. APD makes millions. If you are a banker (like me, sort of), you can do the math on the backside of a piece of paper, with some assumptions on profit margins and numbers sold. We're talking thousands at best, and despite cynical remarks, they spend quite a lot of money on R&D - and certification, by the way. Just look at the massive test setup they aquired for doing in-house testing, and ask ANSTI what such a toy costs (foto's on their website).

same will no doubt apply to CCR Ltd. and the Meg guys. This is not a volume market. Only Poseidon currently believes it will get there (Mk VII); I have my serious doubt, and growth figures of the market as a whole (diving in genral, and Rebreather specifically) I know of support that.

Just my thoughts, very biased .
But I am beyond caring if people agree or not.
This is based a.o. on some insight I happen to have in the current approval and electronics design process & people within APD, but I also work myself in a high-level IT environment, designing 7x24 uptime systems (but admittedly not life-support, so different approach and technology).

Moving from 99 to 99.999% is a major step. the "last mile" problem. That's a radical change, not an evolutionary one.
100% is impossible, despite claims otherwise. Look at the Space shuttle...
Question is: do we all need a space Shuttle, or will a Cessna do..? Single engine, not everything redundant, relying in (significant) part on the pilot skills for many problem situations (a.k.a. bailout..). If it crashes on a city, many will die.
Now, do we want to recall all Cesna's, and demand than only twin-engine planes will do...? no arguing they are inherently safer. And three engines and full double electronics are even safer..! But the question is: is a basic setup Cessna with a well-trained pilot not just good enough..? In the rather heavily regulated airline industry, that is considered to be so for a long, long time now. But maybe we should sue Cessna, and enforce twin engines and double electronics for all functions, on the airline industry as a whole..? (or only on European planes..?).

Question to you, Mike: will you fly as passenger in a Cessna, over a populated area..? If so: why..?

ciao,

Tino To"bias".

Mark Chase

Your being deliberatly obtuse

When my Mazda RX8 was recalled due to a design problem with the starter moter i didnt demand a new and better car I just accepted the replacement upgraded starter moter with free fitting.

Id have been happy if AP had redesigned the hand sets and offered replacement as part of the next service. As it was my hand sets were replaced. I had to pay for them and they were the same crap design ones that failed after only 18 months of very carfull use the last time.

However this is only one of the issues i had with AP.

ATB

Mark

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Is it supposed to make that noise ?

I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit.

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paulraymaekers

hello Tino, please correct again, for the record :-)

rEvo's business is not moved to switserland, only rEvo does not sell in the CE (it would be illegal).
Any individual can buy a unit outside the CE, like in the US, or Australasia, or Switserland..

regards
paul

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