Rebreather World Traitor

***jradomski*** · 18th March 2008, 08:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened?

Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic?

It depends... In many aspects yes, and in my opinion.. some others no...

If they did away with the shared power system then I would probably say yes.. right now If I had to do a big dive, even with all its shortcommings (which are known) I would choose a classic for the indepent power system..

Drmike · 18th March 2008, 08:34

Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9)

up to now, there have been no witnesses available to help the families that had anywhere close to the knowledge of a manufacturer, so the whole process has been extremely one sided. This is not in the interest of the public or the industry long term, but clearly some people on this forum are having difficulties adjusting to the notion of fairness, or the fact that equal access to experts is how the world is supposed to work.

exactly.

Id like to ask Ron a few question Id like him to answer; (in less than 400 words if possible

)

1)Do you disagree that families should be allowed expert witnesses (just as mnf do) ?

2) Given that an expert witness in any industry tends to be choosen FROM the industry just where do you think a suitable expert witness will come from and how can he (being an expert in the industry and therefore likely to be working IN IT, remain totally without commerical interest or bias?? Just how does that work???

In my industry it works EXACTLY like this (same as any other) Expert witnessess for both sides come FROM the industry and very very often from competing companies and usually as in this case well known to each other and from same peer group.

3) Who better than a competitor to look for issues with a unit? Nobody is more motivated

4) Do you feel the death rate of Rebreather users is reasonable

5) If no (to 4 above) do you think Rebreather design is a contributing cause

6) Do you think the expert witnesses produced by mnf are likley to be pro mnf bias?

Mark Chase · 18th March 2008, 08:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened?

Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic?

Surely the end result is, if they are Innocent their own expertise will make Alex look silly and they will walk from court. So why are we concerned?

However most of the personal and professional attacks in this thread are just inane. The fact is AD is an expert in the field of life critical systems design and he has both practical and theoretical expertise with CCR means hes more than qualified to do the job of expert witness.

I used to charge £650 a day several years ago so assuming Alex is on at least this he is giving up a chunk to do the job for expenses only.

If his ultimate aim is to damage AP then I hope his reasons are anger at their complacency rather than commercial int erst. I struggle to believe that with his potential for earning money in other areas that he is planning on making a fortune out of his ccr design?

As some one once said the best way to make a small fortune out of diving is start with a big one.

ATB

Mark

PCDiver · 18th March 2008, 08:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

If his ultimate aim is to damage AP then I hope his reasons are anger at their complacency rather than commercial int erst.

What complacency are you talking about? Because Alex said so?

Drmike · 18th March 2008, 08:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

It must remind you of your epic punch-up on Rebreather World with your best mate

nope not really, seeing as CV isnt offering his services as an expert witness and Im not trying to discredit that by critiqing his diving skills

..nope - doesnt remind me of it at all

Drmike · 18th March 2008, 09:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened?

of course not. Im sure they feel the same as any of us would - For a mnf, no matter how sure they are they have done nothing wrong it must be a nightmare having someone die on one of their units and having to face accusations of responsibility - absolute nightmare. Mnf are not monsters they are just ordinary people like me and you. They make business and design decisions based on a balance of commercial interest legal requirements and 'risk' I am very sure all mnf feel in their hearts that they have the right and reasonable balance.

Quote:

Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic?

I dont know, probably - so?

PeteS · 18th March 2008, 09:10

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

Unless they of course all buy in to Alex' design - which hasn't been released yet. He claims it is, in the OR section of Rebreather World (his own words yesterday), but all I see there is two unsharp distance photo's of a guy in a pool with something like a shining tube on his back... Check it out yourself. Documents, please? user manual, handset layout & menu's, close-up and description of component in head, BOV mouthpiece, etc... And please not the schematic diagrams again: hard proof, please, with detail photo's and good (user) documentation. A hands-on report by one of the test-divers (preferably someone we know; not a professional diving Statoil guy) would be nice also. It may or may not be there, but I'm a "show me, don't tell me" guy. I've heard the "on next DEMA!" too many times now. Allow me to remain a bit sceptical for now; I'll be honest enough to say "Wow!!" if I'm wrong: I promise.

Talk is cheap. So is vapourware.....

CharlieT · 18th March 2008, 09:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

of course not. Im sure they feel the same as any of us would - For a mnf, no matter how sure they are they have done nothing wrong it must be a nightmare having someone die on one of their units and having to face accusations of responsibility - absolute nightmare. Mnf are not monsters they are just ordinary people like me and you. They make business and design decisions based on a balance of commercial interest legal requirements and 'risk' I am very sure all mnf feel in their hearts that they have the right and reasonable balance.

I dont know, probably - so?

Let's sit and think about those words, Mike.

"It must be an absolute nightmare"

The impression I get at times from some of the posts I have read in 2.5 years as a member of Rebreather World is that my chosen brand of rebreather is designed & manufactured by a bunch of idiots who are negligent and irresponsible and only focus on their profits.

I don't believe this of my chosen manufacturer nor of any of the others.

My view. Others have expressed very different ones on this and other sites.

Mark Chase · 18th March 2008, 09:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver)

What complacency are you talking about? Because Alex said so?

I have my own personal experience and the experience of some of my dive buddies which has left me thinking APs attitude is wrong. I would prefer never to use an AP product again.

I had many problems with the Hammer head and issues with delays and communications with Keven but i still like and respect the bloke and If I believed he'd got the bugs out Id buy his product. I am impressed by the fact hes redesigned the hand set four times in an attempt to resolve the problems and he has re written the soft ware to overcome the boot up 02 inject issue. This is the attitude of someone who cares.

IMHO Not so with AP and the single issue of cracked hand sets clearly demonstrates their attitude.

ATB

Mark

Drmike · 18th March 2008, 09:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

t if Alex would be able to convince a European Court that European ECCR's should have their EN14143 certificate withdrawn, based on not fulfilling the full EN61508 demands, it would at very best only remove all (and I mean ALL, 'cause law is indiscriminitive) European ECCR's from the market, incl. the one he currently sort of prefers, the Boris and Sentinel.
CCR Ltd. and Paul's rEvo ans Narked@90 (Pursuit) should realise that also.

It would only limit choice for European divers to USA or Canadian xCCR's, NONE of which are also even remotely EN61508 compliant, or IMHO any better, (or worse) and safer than their euro competitors. .

i

Tino, when such things become regulations does that mean mnf have to stop selling non compliant products imediately or are they given some kind of grace period? How does it work

Do you think current mnf could not design compliant rbs and still have a marketable product?

Could current models be enhanced to meet requirements or are they so extensive that whole new design would be needed?

18th March 2008, 08:21	#61 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,898	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened? Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic? It depends... In many aspects yes, and in my opinion.. some others no... If they did away with the shared power system then I would probably say yes.. right now If I had to do a big dive, even with all its shortcommings (which are known) I would choose a classic for the indepent power system.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated.
(Online)

18th March 2008, 08:34	#62 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by AD_ward9) up to now, there have been no witnesses available to help the families that had anywhere close to the knowledge of a manufacturer, so the whole process has been extremely one sided. This is not in the interest of the public or the industry long term, but clearly some people on this forum are having difficulties adjusting to the notion of fairness, or the fact that equal access to experts is how the world is supposed to work. exactly. Id like to ask Ron a few question Id like him to answer; (in less than 400 words if possible ) 1)Do you disagree that families should be allowed expert witnesses (just as mnf do) ? 2) Given that an expert witness in any industry tends to be choosen FROM the industry just where do you think a suitable expert witness will come from and how can he (being an expert in the industry and therefore likely to be working IN IT, remain totally without commerical interest or bias?? Just how does that work??? In my industry it works EXACTLY like this (same as any other) Expert witnessess for both sides come FROM the industry and very very often from competing companies and usually as in this case well known to each other and from same peer group. 3) Who better than a competitor to look for issues with a unit? Nobody is more motivated 4) Do you feel the death rate of Rebreather users is reasonable 5) If no (to 4 above) do you think Rebreather design is a contributing cause 6) Do you think the expert witnesses produced by mnf are likley to be pro mnf bias? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 18th March 2008 at 09:11.
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18th March 2008, 08:37	#63 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened? Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic? Surely the end result is, if they are Innocent their own expertise will make Alex look silly and they will walk from court. So why are we concerned? However most of the personal and professional attacks in this thread are just inane. The fact is AD is an expert in the field of life critical systems design and he has both practical and theoretical expertise with CCR means hes more than qualified to do the job of expert witness. I used to charge £650 a day several years ago so assuming Alex is on at least this he is giving up a chunk to do the job for expenses only. If his ultimate aim is to damage AP then I hope his reasons are anger at their complacency rather than commercial int erst. I struggle to believe that with his potential for earning money in other areas that he is planning on making a fortune out of his ccr design? As some one once said the best way to make a small fortune out of diving is start with a big one. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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18th March 2008, 08:44	#64 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 938	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) If his ultimate aim is to damage AP then I hope his reasons are anger at their complacency rather than commercial int erst. What complacency are you talking about? Because Alex said so? __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews at http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...nterviews.aspx >>>>> Wreck dive videos http://www.submergeproductions.com/A...omthedeep.aspx
(Online)

18th March 2008, 08:48	#65 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) It must remind you of your epic punch-up on Rebreather World with your best mate nope not really, seeing as CV isnt offering his services as an expert witness and Im not trying to discredit that by critiqing his diving skills ..nope - doesnt remind me of it at all __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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18th March 2008, 09:00	#66 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened? of course not. Im sure they feel the same as any of us would - For a mnf, no matter how sure they are they have done nothing wrong it must be a nightmare having someone die on one of their units and having to face accusations of responsibility - absolute nightmare. Mnf are not monsters they are just ordinary people like me and you. They make business and design decisions based on a balance of commercial interest legal requirements and 'risk' I am very sure all mnf feel in their hearts that they have the right and reasonable balance. Quote: Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic? I dont know, probably - so? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment Last edited by Drmike : 18th March 2008 at 09:04.
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18th March 2008, 09:10	#67 (permalink)
PeteS Consent Issued! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Zealand Posts: 515	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) Unless they of course all buy in to Alex' design - which hasn't been released yet. He claims it is, in the OR section of Rebreather World (his own words yesterday), but all I see there is two unsharp distance photo's of a guy in a pool with something like a shining tube on his back... Check it out yourself. Documents, please? user manual, handset layout & menu's, close-up and description of component in head, BOV mouthpiece, etc... And please not the schematic diagrams again: hard proof, please, with detail photo's and good (user) documentation. A hands-on report by one of the test-divers (preferably someone we know; not a professional diving Statoil guy) would be nice also. It may or may not be there, but I'm a "show me, don't tell me" guy. I've heard the "on next DEMA!" too many times now. Allow me to remain a bit sceptical for now; I'll be honest enough to say "Wow!!" if I'm wrong: I promise. Talk is cheap. So is vapourware..... __________________ Pete S. http://www.steggle.co.nz Every silver lining has a cloud
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18th March 2008, 09:14	#68 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) of course not. Im sure they feel the same as any of us would - For a mnf, no matter how sure they are they have done nothing wrong it must be a nightmare having someone die on one of their units and having to face accusations of responsibility - absolute nightmare. Mnf are not monsters they are just ordinary people like me and you. They make business and design decisions based on a balance of commercial interest legal requirements and 'risk' I am very sure all mnf feel in their hearts that they have the right and reasonable balance. I dont know, probably - so? Let's sit and think about those words, Mike. "It must be an absolute nightmare" The impression I get at times from some of the posts I have read in 2.5 years as a member of Rebreather World is that my chosen brand of rebreather is designed & manufactured by a bunch of idiots who are negligent and irresponsible and only focus on their profits. I don't believe this of my chosen manufacturer nor of any of the others. My view. Others have expressed very different ones on this and other sites.
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18th March 2008, 09:15	#69 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,562	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by PCDiver) What complacency are you talking about? Because Alex said so? I have my own personal experience and the experience of some of my dive buddies which has left me thinking APs attitude is wrong. I would prefer never to use an AP product again. I had many problems with the Hammer head and issues with delays and communications with Keven but i still like and respect the bloke and If I believed he'd got the bugs out Id buy his product. I am impressed by the fact hes redesigned the hand set four times in an attempt to resolve the problems and he has re written the soft ware to overcome the boot up 02 inject issue. This is the attitude of someone who cares. IMHO Not so with AP and the single issue of cracked hand sets clearly demonstrates their attitude. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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18th March 2008, 09:21	#70 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,163	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) t if Alex would be able to convince a European Court that European ECCR's should have their EN14143 certificate withdrawn, based on not fulfilling the full EN61508 demands, it would at very best only remove all (and I mean ALL, 'cause law is indiscriminitive) European ECCR's from the market, incl. the one he currently sort of prefers, the Boris and Sentinel. CCR Ltd. and Paul's rEvo ans Narked@90 (Pursuit) should realise that also. It would only limit choice for European divers to USA or Canadian xCCR's, NONE of which are also even remotely EN61508 compliant, or IMHO any better, (or worse) and safer than their euro competitors. . i Tino, when such things become regulations does that mean mnf have to stop selling non compliant products imediately or are they given some kind of grace period? How does it work Do you think current mnf could not design compliant rbs and still have a marketable product? Could current models be enhanced to meet requirements or are they so extensive that whole new design would be needed? __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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