Rebreather World Traitor

chunter

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house...unless you are locked inside and have a stone handy.

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Dave Sutton

With all due respect: Alex has not brought the case. He's simply agreed to testify as to his professional opinion. It is my understanding that he is doing so pro bono publico, so is not being compensated. The products that his firm designs do not compete with the product that he is being asked to testify about, as if that were the case he would not be seated due to conflict of interest. The people who brought the case are the litigants: Alex is just an invited participant no different than any other expert. His only obligation is to the truth, not to some nebulous "community". His responsibility is to the court, not to Rebreather World or it's members. I have zero doubt that the truth will out, as every side will have their say. The system works, and it works precisely because all sides are politely heard. Who is to say what side will prevail? Perhaps we'll find out that the manufacturers are culpable of some great coverup, and perhaps not. Who knows? If that's the case, it'll be a good deed for all. The system is in motion, let's patiently await the results. Whatever the result, it'll end a lot of controversy.


Dave

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onetime

People also seem to be forgetting that the other side can cross examine any expert witness and call their own. It's not one sided.

RonMicjan

then you suspect wrong. Did you not even bother to read the whole post, especially the section about my father? Dont be an ass mike.

I would have taught any loved one who is diving a CCR that the end responsibility of thier safety lies solely with themselves. They should expect that the unit is trying its best to end thier life and it is thier sole responsibility is to prevent it. Ask any of my students, including Patti, about how I teach and where the responsibility rests. I can only give them the tools, its the students job to use them correctly. In my teaching outline is the statement:
For Discussion, All rebreather accidents are the fault of the diver. And we all discuss it. I also speak frankly about all possible ways for the CCR to fail, and the preventative treatments, as well as the bailout procedures.

EVERYTHING breaks...eventually. A prudent CCR diver is always ready for that failure.

__________________
Ron
"Life is pain princess, anyone who tells you different, is selling something", The Dread Pirate Wesley.


www.tmishop.com Diving bits etc.

AD_ward9

Just to keep the record straight:

1. We are compensated for accident investigations, though in very rare cases where the family are not in the position to afford it, we may charge out of pocket expenses only. We never do it completely for free: an accident study is a major undertaking at this end. In the case concerned (US case that raised the Court Order), we made the normal charge for the work.

2. We do not charge for time for appearing in court, as courts are a public process.

3. Your broad experience comes through again in your earlier post when you point out that anything any expert says is challenged by a barrage of other witnesses for the other side. Just that up to now, there have been no witnesses available to help the families that had anywhere close to the knowledge of a manufacturer, so the whole process has been extremely one sided. This is not in the interest of the public or the industry long term, but clearly some people on this forum are having difficulties adjusting to the notion of fairness, or the fact that equal access to experts is how the world is supposed to work. When I finish a report, if it finds any fault with the equipment, then every aspect of that report will be attacked publicly in court by an army of the best experts the manufacturer can find, and every alternative view will also be put forward. Their legal counsel will attack me, my motives, everything, and interested parties will attack me out of court as well as in court. As you know well, an expert witness who finds any fault anywhere with a manufacturer is due for a very hard ride, so I understand well why so few are prepared to do it. In the end the truth does come out, eventually, though it may take more than a few legal cases to do it.

Alex

Nad

Hey Ron, I'm sorry for your father and all respect to him and you as son but now you really suck.
This have nothing to do with the Thread so keep track of it or if this is just all you have to say it is better to shut up.
I never met you but I was thinking to you as a good professional or diver or whateverelse. Now I just see a kid, debate against something that he don't understand for someone who never asked his help.

Nad

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Tino de Rijk

Please leave me out of here. Key difference is I DON'T claim to be an expert, and/or act as expert witness in court cases. I have a strong opinion on the Inspo, yes, and don't shy in wording that. Also I clash regularly with alex, but mostly on content, not emotions. I don't agree with many of his views/opion, and do agree with some others. I don't care if he personaly is a good diver or not, or a nice person. He probably is: I never met him.

I don't mind him acting as frontman for better safety on Rebreather's in general, but don't like the way he does that, and -and that's MUCH more important here- also think the route-by-force-through-EUROPEAN-court- is in fact counter-productive, and in the end will not save ONE single diver. It will not, for the simple fact that if Alex would be able to convince a European Court that European ECCR's should have their EN14143 certificate withdrawn, based on not fulfilling the full EN61508 demands, it would at very best only remove all (and I mean ALL, 'cause law is indiscriminitive) European ECCR's from the market, incl. the one he currently sort of prefers, the Boris and Sentinel.
CCR Ltd. and Paul's rEvo ans Narked@90 (Pursuit) should realise that also.

It would only limit choice for European divers to USA or Canadian xCCR's, NONE of which are also even remotely EN61508 compliant, or IMHO any better, (or worse) and safer than their euro competitors. Or Asian, African, whatever...
It will only wipe out the Euro xCCR industry (as it would likely also take the Pursuit and rEvo with it).
Would they be able to recuperate from that soon..? I very much doubt that - competition is tough, volumes are small, these are all not big companies, incl, APD.
Unless they of course all buy in to Alex' design - which hasn't been released yet. He claims it is, in the OR section of Rebreather World (his own words yesterday), but all I see there is two unsharp distance photo's of a guy in a pool with something like a shining tube on his back... Check it out yourself. Documents, please? user manual, handset layout & menu's, close-up and description of component in head, BOV mouthpiece, etc... And please not the schematic diagrams again: hard proof, please, with detail photo's and good (user) documentation. A hands-on report by one of the test-divers (preferably someone we know; not a professional diving Statoil guy) would be nice also. It may or may not be there, but I'm a "show me, don't tell me" guy. I've heard the "on next DEMA!" too many times now. Allow me to remain a bit sceptical for now; I'll be honest enough to say "Wow!!" if I'm wrong: I promise.

Now explain me again how this all contributes to safety, or less dead divers? Or will the americans than suddenly see the light, and voluntarily go for adopting the EN14143 and EN61508...? Or all be on Alex' doorstep for re-doing their stuff based on his designs/poducts..? Yeah.... and pigs can fly....

So be carefull what you wish for in supporting Alex in this PARTICULAR case: the case being legal support for enforcing the adoption by mnf's of EN61508. That's what started his all. Let's not get distracted by his other roles in this thread.

Ciao,

Tino To"bias".

CharlieT

It must remind you of your epic punch-up on Rebreather World with your best mate

CharlieT

Do you really think that any of the manufacturers are happy that any of their customers have died or about having to appear in court virtually every time this has happened?

Is the Inspiration Vision not a step forward in safety & specification compared to the Classic?

Drmike

....this is you being civil is it?......aaaaannnnddd so we resort to name calling Im frankly amazed that the mods allowed your 1st post to stand now your starting on me.

Oh and by the way - I dont believe you - not for a min not for a sec.

Nope I didnt as it has nothing to do with the discussion or situation here.

Ron you always argue from a emotive standpoint almost never a factual one, as your 1st post in this thread proves. I really dont see why you dont want relatives to have access to due process.

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Wreck diving is a sport
Diving in general is a sport

'Rebreather diving' is not a sport
its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment