Rebreather World Traitor

Drmike · 17th March 2008, 16:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk)

Uhm... that's Alex' position. Not everybody agrees with that, to put it mildy.
Suffice to say that Rebreather's that for 100% sure do NOT adhere to the EN61508, like the rEvo or Sentinel, have gotten CE approval recently, based on EN14143 (the one that is leading for Rebreather approval and "hosts" the actually rather inconclusive reference the 61508).
so the "required by law" on this particular one is an assumption. See last year's thread on this subject.

ciao,

Tino.

thanks,

.....now my brains starting to hurt!

....lifes so much simpler with OC

**Dave Sutton** · 17th March 2008, 16:30

Really don't see any issues here. Expert witnesses work in court every day. I do some of it myself (aerospace only). Differences of professional opinions are expected there, and the other side has ample opportunity to refute. It's actually a pretty civilized way to do business . The firm states it will only do one case per year, so it's hardly a revenue producer. I simply don't see it an an issue for professionals to hold and state professional opinions.

Dave

.

UKSteve · 17th March 2008, 16:37

Sorry.. but personally I think the offer of expert witness assistance is a GOOD thing. Perhaps a court case as described would finally put to rest the question as to whether the rebreathers on sale in Europe really do meet all relevant CE requirements.

It they do then Alex will have been proved wrong.... if they do not then we can move forward and the powers that be can decided if/where the gaps really are between legislation and the equipment on the market and they, with manufactuers, can decide how to close the gap.

As for the slur of Alex being a traitor.. really can't see it myself.. his position is nothing new and certainly not at odds with the goals of improving CCR safety.. unless you think 1 CCR death per month is a reasonable hit rate. I wonder how long the item has been on his website?

And as for the slur of ambulance chaser? Geez, get a life!!

Steve

Jim · 17th March 2008, 16:38

Alex,

A response ?

Without one it appears to most that this site has assisted you, unwittingly, in the preperation of a document that will be used for commercial gain (unfortunately, law suits can be considered as such, founded or not). I have no problem with improvements in safety ..... but I do have a problem in being duped. Like most I assumed the list was for the awareness and perusal of this group ?!

I've said before that every CCR diver knows the risks and we've all said before 'know your PPO2' is a mantra that will bring us back if we adhere to knowing it ...... Let your family know the risks and if you can't take the heat .... stay out of the water !

My fear is, as soon as we involve the courts (let alone an American or British court) in one of our few last legal freedoms we start on a downward spiral.

Real care needs to be taken before I will throw support behind an initiative on the site again.

Safe diving & remember, know thy PPO2 or you leave us all at the mercy of the sharks !!!

Andy M · 17th March 2008, 16:46

Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan)

Deep life is offering "technical expertise" to litigators sueing CCR manufactures for loss of life.

I am appalled, you should be too, and Alex should be deeply ashamed.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Alex is doing. Did you get out the wrong side of bed this morning Ron? It is quite normal for a company to offer its services as an expert witness. In this case he states it is limited to one case per year. Hardly ambulance chasing.

I'm sure we have more interesting things to talk about.

Nad · 17th March 2008, 16:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M)

I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Alex is doing. Did you get out the wrong side of bed this morning Ron? It is quite normal for a company to offer its services as an expert witness. In this case he states it is limited to one case per year. Hardly ambulance chasing.

I'm sure we have more interesting things to talk about.

Quote 100% and same about DrMike opinions.
Also if Ouroboros or Sentinel don't meet (I don't really know) the CE 15....

If the goal is to improve safety in design, that's fine, and I don't think only for myself.

I support the idea, wherever is leading.

Nad

Mark Chase · 17th March 2008, 17:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Ron, Im curious,

Is it the fact that Deep Life is campaigning for all rebreathers to be brought up to EN61508 (as is required by law in Europe) that is bothering you?

or is it that Deep Life will provide technical expertise to lawyers claiming damages that result from failure to meet these basic safety standards? [to a maximum of one case per year. We hope this is needed only short term to effect change."] thats bothering you?

I think the former is a good thing dont you???

I think the latter could be seen two ways depending on your viewpoint, 1) commercial interest and underhand naughtiness or 2) trying to 'encourage' or effect change to save lives.

I dont know Alex personally so cant honestly say which motivation I think is more likely - but I really cant help but feel that even if his motivation is not so selfless that the end may justify the means if it helps reduce the terrible death rates

but as has been said - sure as hell wont win any beauty contest!

When hes not busy slagging me off, Dr Mike does talk a whole lot of sense

Sorry but I am in no way shocked or horrified and Its nice to know there is someone out there fighting to make the manufacturers sit up and take notice.

Till now the only "expert witnesses" seem to come from inside the camp of the manufacturers them selves. Out side expertise of the caliber offered by AD are very welcome.

When I did expert witness work I often had the awkward task of telling the client who was paying me that he had no case. Sometimes the truth didn't go down well. This would be an even harder task for Alex if dealing with bereaved clients but as long as his moral high standards remain intact and he can handle telling a client his/ her loved one screwed up and thats why he /she died, then I don't have a problem.

Each unit design has limitations and weaknesses but there is a difference between a development issue that showed up in use and a known fault thats been brought to their attention. If the they have failed to address the issue properly and within a reasonable time period then they deserve to get sued.

I don't see a need for all CCR to offer the redundancy and failsafe options they are discussing for AD's unit, I wouldn't want one. A unit like the KISS or a PP02 only unit like the Meg Apex2 or even the Classic inspo, has a heavy emphasis on diver attentiveness and skill. Thats not a bad thing. What is bad is a fault on one of these basic units that makes it incapable of providing even the minimal life support or data it is supposed to offer.

ATB

Mark

divetheworld · 17th March 2008, 17:21

Sorry Ron, but I'm afraid that I dont agree with your post. In fact I am offended at the tone and content of your 'opinion' by the use of the word traitor.

It is common knowledge that Alex and I have butted heads from time to time but I have a great deal of professional respect for him and his ethics.
I for one, support his endeavours and look forward to the day that all manufacturers (us included) meet his lofty ideals.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase)

Till now the only "expert witnesses" seem to come from inside the camp of the manufacturers them selves. Out side expertise of the caliber offered by AD are very welcome.

<snip>

Each unit design has limitations and weaknesses but there is a difference between a development issue that showed up in use and a known fault thats been brought to their attention. If the they have failed to address the issue properly and within a reasonable time period then they deserve to get sued.

ATB

Mark

And thats another reason why I'm in his corner. Well said.

Brent

CharlieT · 17th March 2008, 17:50

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

I don't think that this is anything new, as he has been accused of bias and unethical motivations in a number of posts on a number of threads in the past to my knowledge. I guess, if you haven't read those threads, then it might come as a surprise.

I think that it is generally accepted these days that there is no such thing as an altruistic motive. Only time will tell what the outcome of this particular approach will be.

Cheers,

Phil

But do we need to actively encourage the blood sucking lawyers?

There's a lot of talk about killer units munching their poor little owners but no available alternative.

I want to dive CCR so what do I do until this risk free unit appears?

I give up the kind of diving I really enjoy and wait, for how long?

Until I'm too old to dive anyway?

One legal case a year at the moment but how many per annum in the future?

Alex does appear to have used Rebreather World members to help compile part of his alarming document.

How many of us are happy about this?

Mdemon · 17th March 2008, 18:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT)

Alex does appear to have used Rebreather World members to help compile part of his alarming document.

How many of us are happy about this?

How many people are happy with the "alarming document"?

Personally, whilst the aims may be fine, I've always disagreed with the style and often the conclusions. That in itself makes me wonder about the slant the "expertise" will take.

17th March 2008, 16:28	#11 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,303	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Tino de Rijk) Uhm... that's Alex' position. Not everybody agrees with that, to put it mildy. Suffice to say that Rebreather's that for 100% sure do NOT adhere to the EN61508, like the rEvo or Sentinel, have gotten CE approval recently, based on EN14143 (the one that is leading for Rebreather approval and "hosts" the actually rather inconclusive reference the 61508). so the "required by law" on this particular one is an assumption. See last year's thread on this subject. ciao, Tino. thanks, .....now my brains starting to hurt! ....lifes so much simpler with OC __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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17th March 2008, 16:30	#12 (permalink)
Dave Sutton Diveshop of Horrors Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss MK 15.X rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Azimuth Home Build Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Narragansett, Rhode Island and Hackettstown, New Jersey Posts: 2,689	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Really don't see any issues here. Expert witnesses work in court every day. I do some of it myself (aerospace only). Differences of professional opinions are expected there, and the other side has ample opportunity to refute. It's actually a pretty civilized way to do business . The firm states it will only do one case per year, so it's hardly a revenue producer. I simply don't see it an an issue for professionals to hold and state professional opinions. Dave . __________________ "Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com
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17th March 2008, 16:37	#13 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 606	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Sorry.. but personally I think the offer of expert witness assistance is a GOOD thing. Perhaps a court case as described would finally put to rest the question as to whether the rebreathers on sale in Europe really do meet all relevant CE requirements. It they do then Alex will have been proved wrong.... if they do not then we can move forward and the powers that be can decided if/where the gaps really are between legislation and the equipment on the market and they, with manufactuers, can decide how to close the gap. As for the slur of Alex being a traitor.. really can't see it myself.. his position is nothing new and certainly not at odds with the goals of improving CCR safety.. unless you think 1 CCR death per month is a reasonable hit rate. I wonder how long the item has been on his website? And as for the slur of ambulance chaser? Geez, get a life!! Steve Last edited by UKSteve : 17th March 2008 at 16:39.
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17th March 2008, 16:38	#14 (permalink)
Jim Lovable Cockhead ! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Purley, UK Posts: 145	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Alex, A response ? Without one it appears to most that this site has assisted you, unwittingly, in the preperation of a document that will be used for commercial gain (unfortunately, law suits can be considered as such, founded or not). I have no problem with improvements in safety ..... but I do have a problem in being duped. Like most I assumed the list was for the awareness and perusal of this group ?! I've said before that every CCR diver knows the risks and we've all said before 'know your PPO2' is a mantra that will bring us back if we adhere to knowing it ...... Let your family know the risks and if you can't take the heat .... stay out of the water ! My fear is, as soon as we involve the courts (let alone an American or British court) in one of our few last legal freedoms we start on a downward spiral. Real care needs to be taken before I will throw support behind an initiative on the site again. Safe diving & remember, know thy PPO2 or you leave us all at the mercy of the sharks !!! __________________ Jim Spence
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17th March 2008, 16:46	#15 (permalink)
Andy M Dude Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 424	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by RonMicjan) Deep life is offering "technical expertise" to litigators sueing CCR manufactures for loss of life. I am appalled, you should be too, and Alex should be deeply ashamed. I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Alex is doing. Did you get out the wrong side of bed this morning Ron? It is quite normal for a company to offer its services as an expert witness. In this case he states it is limited to one case per year. Hardly ambulance chasing. I'm sure we have more interesting things to talk about. __________________ Know your PO2 at all times
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17th March 2008, 16:58	#16 (permalink)
Nad Rebel to the Bone Current Rebreather/s: Ouroboros Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 983	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Andy M) I see absolutely nothing wrong with what Alex is doing. Did you get out the wrong side of bed this morning Ron? It is quite normal for a company to offer its services as an expert witness. In this case he states it is limited to one case per year. Hardly ambulance chasing. I'm sure we have more interesting things to talk about. Quote 100% and same about DrMike opinions. Also if Ouroboros or Sentinel don't meet (I don't really know) the CE 15.... If the goal is to improve safety in design, that's fine, and I don't think only for myself. I support the idea, wherever is leading. Nad __________________ The Impossible is often the Untried
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17th March 2008, 17:00	#17 (permalink)
Mark Chase I go down for ages Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Kent Posts: 2,694	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Ron, Im curious, Is it the fact that Deep Life is campaigning for all rebreathers to be brought up to EN61508 (as is required by law in Europe) that is bothering you? or is it that Deep Life will provide technical expertise to lawyers claiming damages that result from failure to meet these basic safety standards? [to a maximum of one case per year. We hope this is needed only short term to effect change."] thats bothering you? I think the former is a good thing dont you??? I think the latter could be seen two ways depending on your viewpoint, 1) commercial interest and underhand naughtiness or 2) trying to 'encourage' or effect change to save lives. I dont know Alex personally so cant honestly say which motivation I think is more likely - but I really cant help but feel that even if his motivation is not so selfless that the end may justify the means if it helps reduce the terrible death rates but as has been said - sure as hell wont win any beauty contest! When hes not busy slagging me off, Dr Mike does talk a whole lot of sense Sorry but I am in no way shocked or horrified and Its nice to know there is someone out there fighting to make the manufacturers sit up and take notice. Till now the only "expert witnesses" seem to come from inside the camp of the manufacturers them selves. Out side expertise of the caliber offered by AD are very welcome. When I did expert witness work I often had the awkward task of telling the client who was paying me that he had no case. Sometimes the truth didn't go down well. This would be an even harder task for Alex if dealing with bereaved clients but as long as his moral high standards remain intact and he can handle telling a client his/ her loved one screwed up and thats why he /she died, then I don't have a problem. Each unit design has limitations and weaknesses but there is a difference between a development issue that showed up in use and a known fault thats been brought to their attention. If the they have failed to address the issue properly and within a reasonable time period then they deserve to get sued. I don't see a need for all CCR to offer the redundancy and failsafe options they are discussing for AD's unit, I wouldn't want one. A unit like the KISS or a PP02 only unit like the Meg Apex2 or even the Classic inspo, has a heavy emphasis on diver attentiveness and skill. Thats not a bad thing. What is bad is a fault on one of these basic units that makes it incapable of providing even the minimal life support or data it is supposed to offer. ATB Mark __________________ Is it supposed to make that noise ? I took my unit to the dive shop and demanded they bolt on every thing that would fit. Join my elite diving teem and get a Tshirt "Doing It Chasey"Hammerhead Eccr Advanced Diving System
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17th March 2008, 17:21	#18 (permalink)
divetheworld Dive porn pimp Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Classic Kiss Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Leeds, England Posts: 1,585	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Sorry Ron, but I'm afraid that I dont agree with your post. In fact I am offended at the tone and content of your 'opinion' by the use of the word traitor. It is common knowledge that Alex and I have butted heads from time to time but I have a great deal of professional respect for him and his ethics. I for one, support his endeavours and look forward to the day that all manufacturers (us included) meet his lofty ideals. Quote: (Originally Posted by Mark Chase) Till now the only "expert witnesses" seem to come from inside the camp of the manufacturers them selves. Out side expertise of the caliber offered by AD are very welcome. <snip> Each unit design has limitations and weaknesses but there is a difference between a development issue that showed up in use and a known fault thats been brought to their attention. If the they have failed to address the issue properly and within a reasonable time period then they deserve to get sued. ATB Mark And thats another reason why I'm in his corner. Well said. Brent __________________ Attitude and self praise is no reccomendation. Dont try to be a great man, just be a man and let history be the judge of you. CHECK OUT OUR INTERWEBS FOR CUSTOM REBREATHER UPGRADES *WWW.NARKEDAT90.CO.UK* *http://www.grpservices.com/pursuit/* Supporting Shearwater Research Products in Europe Last edited by divetheworld : 17th March 2008 at 17:28.
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17th March 2008, 17:50	#19 (permalink)
CharlieT Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: London Posts: 449	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) I don't think that this is anything new, as he has been accused of bias and unethical motivations in a number of posts on a number of threads in the past to my knowledge. I guess, if you haven't read those threads, then it might come as a surprise. I think that it is generally accepted these days that there is no such thing as an altruistic motive. Only time will tell what the outcome of this particular approach will be. Cheers, Phil But do we need to actively encourage the blood sucking lawyers? There's a lot of talk about killer units munching their poor little owners but no available alternative. I want to dive CCR so what do I do until this risk free unit appears? I give up the kind of diving I really enjoy and wait, for how long? Until I'm too old to dive anyway? One legal case a year at the moment but how many per annum in the future? Alex does appear to have used Rebreather World members to help compile part of his alarming document. How many of us are happy about this?
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17th March 2008, 18:04	#20 (permalink)
Mdemon SiegeEngine II Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Home Build Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: SWUK Posts: 1,931	Re: Rebreather World Traitor Quote: (Originally Posted by CharlieT) Alex does appear to have used Rebreather World members to help compile part of his alarming document. How many of us are happy about this? How many people are happy with the "alarming document"? Personally, whilst the aims may be fine, I've always disagreed with the style and often the conclusions. That in itself makes me wonder about the slant the "expertise" will take. __________________ www.southwestmafia.com "small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!" The WRONG Attitude will get you killed. "Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"
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