RBW Traitor

gibbogeo

Past prime minister (finally!), please, and didn't i talk about professor being completely dumb?

I didn't wanted to enter any polemics, really, just to pass the info that the preferred technical witness in courts are the university professors, as dumb as they are, at least here.

I don't want to "scass", believe me.

I can add my point of view: i think that a sort of protection for the customer must be enforced, or by giving responsibility on the makers for product (my choice), or by enforcing seriously some sort of minimum standard. You know as i do the situation in Italy, with product that are CE certified by not notified bodies...

Then i can talk about the 7 to 9 year to have a verdict in this country, but i would start to cry...

jptaylor9

Isn't that the issue? The recreational CCR market is small, the volumes sold are only in the hundreds, unlike cars. Of cause low volume/high performance cars are made, but they're typically very expensive.

The oil industry is prepared to pay high prices for kit, but as as Alex pointed out the daily rate for drilling platforms is high, so cost is relative.

The current cost of £5000/$10000 for a new unit is most probably as much as the market will bear.

Faceless

I assure you it is. It happens with every exotic product at the very beginning, which falls into the same damned circle: it's homebuild =>it's dangerous & highly complex => few potential customers => little profit & hight costs to buld due to low production volumes => no money for proper design => it's remains a homebild (ndefinitely long) unless company invest many into proper design process ( hard way) or start to persuage others that since their unit was produced and sold about 5-10 years, now its consirered to be safe (look ma, we have changed the color of that nice shining plate on scrubber can and made the LCD screen glass blue etc..., it's a totally new version ) silently omitting the fact that new units are continued to be designed with the same design standards applicable for amateurs/homebuilds only. CCR Industry must step into mass market out of "exotic cave", and adhering to the safety design techiques for life support systems is the only way to go fo any serious menufacturer.
Of course there always will be the place for homebuilders, but the line must be grawn. Legendary Gordon Smith fully understood this concept and state of the mind, he is a fine example of a CCR developer with a right state of the mind.

__________________
Peoples risk perception is almost always focused on the most dramatic rather than the most probable. (c) Gordon Smith

jptaylor9

I understand the point you make, however, I remain unconvinced that CCR diving will be adopted by the "mass" recreatioinal diving market, I'm sure most will stay on OC. I'm not sure it's even advisable. We'll have to see how much success the Poseidon Mk 6 has.

I know there are threads on new divers going straight to CCR....

Abbo

If I may repond to a post meant for DrMike...
The fatality rate on rebreathers is many orders of magnitude greater than on OC. There is no acceptable rate - every death is a total tragedy - but the present rate is absolutely deplorable. The divers who are being lost are, in the main, highly trained, and dive frequently - particularly when you compare with the levels of people who die on OC. It seems, therefore, that rebreathers have something of a Friday 13th problem that some people are not prepared to face up to. I don't think that anyone has done as much as Alex has to make us aware of the statistics or of the nature of the dangers. I, for one, am convinced that his contributions to Rebreather World have saved lives - God knows one of them might have been mine. None of us thought the level of fatalities was as high as his work has shown it to be. Many of us have been stimulated to think more deeply and reconsider our strategies after reading his comments on Rebreather World.

People are dying. The right place to discuss that fact is in court, as calmly and logically as possible, with the input of the most knowledgable people who can be found. What would be a crime would be if courts were not able to hear the testimony of experts. If you feel you have greater knowledge than Alex, offer your services. It's not the offering of knowledge that is traitorous but the denial of that testimony: an act of treachery to the vulnerable people who have been left behind. The court of public opinion in RBW is absolutely no substitute for the law courts, however much we value this site.

Nad

Oooohh, that's time! Anyway he's also from Bologna...


No worries, you never scassed.
Let me think it is something beginning with V and ending with oyager?

I agree, giving responsability is probably the same as enforcing standards, otherwise it could be difficult to control.
Cheers

Nad

__________________
The Impossible is often the Untried

jptaylor9

Obviously every death is a tradedy, I'm not a heartless person. But do you really expect the number of fatalities to drop to zero a year? It would be very nice if it did, but I don't think that's realistic. However, I'd agree that the rate should be less than the number occuring at present.

gibbogeo

No way, he is a "testaquadra" from Reggio Emilia province!

Ok, it is a professor from University of Bologna, but he is not an active one from a long time and sometime we make mistakes we are not proud of.

Now we just need to find a way that can be done here to enforce standard, in a situation where nobody cares about them and going in front of a court means waiting years and years.

Another approach is the "do it yourself" one: you sell me crappy equipment, i drill your knees without asking for a court or a legal intervention. But i hope we will not arrive to this point.

Decodiver

I hope to God it does drop to zero a year, I like many, have lost friends on CCR.

Anything that moves to reduce fatalities in any possible way, is erudite and worthy of exploration.

Cheers,

Dave Cooper.

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CCR Training to Mixed Gas in Switzerland, France, UK & Germany on
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Rebreather World Terms & Conditions

Gasman

.

Do you know this to be true?
You might like to look at the BSAC web site or perhaps peruse the US DAN stats. Technical divers on O/C die too.... it's just that they are not counted separately. Deep diving per se is probably several orders of magnitude more dangerous than recreational diving. We don't acually know how much more dangerous CCR diving is (though we all suspect that it is more dangerous still) than equivalent O/C diving.

CCR manufacturers must take all reasonable steps to make their CCRs as safe as possible. But if we truly want to make this sport safer we must address all the issues including training, diver selection and attitude.

At the end of the day, water is a non respirable medium.

Andrew