RBW Traitor

Abbo

If you make life support systems, however good your system, you are going to end up in court eventually. Sooner or later, somebody is going to die using your product. If you are a good company then you have nothing to hide. Good companies do not try and silence critics: quite the opposite, they seek out criticism, listen to it and learn from it. When somebody has died, both sides surely have a legitimate need to understand what went wrong. Whether you are an expert witness on the manufacturer's side or the victim's team, you are doing a valuable job for both camps and for every user of the product. To accuse either witness of being traitorous, whether paid or not, is doing an immense disservice to every user of the product. Whether users understand it or not, every existing user is getting something for nothing out of the court case: knowledge without paying an incremental cent for it.

Though rebreather owners benefit from the discovery process in courts, rebreather instructors have very different incentives. They need sales of the rebreather they teach to grow as fast as possible, and court cases put their income at risk. If they attempt to impede the discovery process by flinging inflamatory expressions like 'traitor' at expert witnesses, it gives the impression that they have no faith in the product they teach or the honesty of its maker. They also deprive existing users of the fruits of the discovery process.

Companies with shareholders have a legal fiduciary duty to maximise profits and can be sued for spending shareholders' money for any end except maximising profits. Lawyers are massively incentivised to win their cases, and sometimes it seems they attempt to do this at any cost. And yet, in most of our countries in the first world these opposing forces cancel out and give us a system that works very well in protecting our rights.

And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.
(Desiderata)

divetheworld

Thats OK mate, now Tino's told all the lawyers reading this how he flies his own plane...

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Mark Chase

I don't know where you got this from but its not relevant in the case AD is involved in. As I understood it, the allegation was brown out due to blind code errors in the hand sets. The failure was brought about by battery bounce and the hand sets failed to reboot properly due to brown out.

Seeing as both master and slave had matching software, the failure was possibly mirrored across both hand sets.

Had the diver managed the situation better he would have survived and had the hand sets performed properly its likely he would have survived as well.

You might think you can handle it but no one really knows till it hits them for real. I hope i am never put to the test as far better divers than me have died on CCR.


ATB

Mark

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See my "Doing It Chasey" video where I'm locked into a padded room, naked, with two ball bearings and within an Hour, I manage to lose one and break the other!!!

Kevin Juergensen 16/11/08
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Dutchy

Do you have a message other than trying to discredit a man who has ideals? With all the flak he's taking from people with other agendas than him we seem to loose focus. Focus should be on this action that allegedly makes him a traitor. Who does he betray? Why? Could we discuss that instead of taking turns in getting all sorts of old nonsense into the equation?

PS I just picked one post and could have picked another one. Bottom line could we please stick to the topic and do without the apparant old? grieves...

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Brainx3

Hi,


First of all, there are many experts and CCR gurus here which have contributed with positive information on both sides. I think instead this could be summarized in a better way. first question is: Are CE approved Rebreather's come out from their manufacturers as faulty units? I would say NO but IF they did then they would still be under warranty and will get fixed with no additional charges and that happens with virtually everything in life and not only with rebreathers. Many problems with rebreathers happened due to lack of maintenance and many others due of lack of responsibility and/or immatureness and that's something the user only take responsibility of. Standards, laws and regulations are not the 10 commandments and they do change to higher up the safety level and that applies in all industries as well as in diving. Many times on the Inspiration mailing list Nicky Finn wrote and replied to users' emails regarding problems, inquiries and incidents and they do try to stay as close as possible to divers. (That's just an example about APD)

Mark, everything will come to a breaking point eventually it's just a matter of time once again it's all about maintenance. If you are worried that you unit or its parts won't be working after 2 years then I suggest to get your unit insured and then you may dive it for as much as you want then in case anything happened it will be repaid by the insurance company. Another important safety factor is for us all here working together and be as constructive as possible and have a friendly communication between us. We could also use the voting system to simplify the process.


Best Regards. Wael

__________________
The depth of life cannot be measured in Bars, nor can the sea of lies, that lies within.

Sooner or later I'll be cracking your market and end your game.

I don't take crap for an answer...

mempilot

Here is the quandry in my mind:

This seems to be company A stirring the pot about company B, C, D ... Z and company A stands to profit from the demise of such companies, whether it be regulatory death or bad press.

If Alex didn't have a rebreather in the works, but offered his professional expertise and testimony in these lawsuits, then I'd be on board with him. However, he is privy to his work and research, and uses it in a predatory manner call all other units unsafe. He is publicly 'selling' the idea of his forthcoming unit while supplying detrimental information against his future competition.

This in itself is a conflict of interest, and he will ultimately profit from it. We may all win in the end; however, the tactic is not palletable to me.

Does BMW put their engineers in the witness box or provide litigious support to families that died in Mercedes or Porsches? Absolutely not. And the industry would be beside itself if they did.

I think this is what Ron is trying to point out.

Look, Alex, we all would like to see less deaths on RBs. Over here in FL we just lost a compadre last weekend, so Rebreather safety hits pretty close to home. But let's make sure the means justify the end. Maybe you can tone down your speak about your competition, and just focus on your unit. You will gain a lot more respect from everybody, and you will probably create a more interested following in doing so.

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Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"

Mdemon

Someone made the point to me today "If not Alex, then who?".

It was a good point. The alternative is either the original manufacturer or a direct rival, both of whom may have vested interests. Alex isn't a direct rival. Yet.

__________________
www.southwestmafia.com

"small minds talk about people, Average Minds Talk About Events, GREAT MINDS TALK ABOUT IDEAS!"

The WRONG Attitude will get you killed.

"Once the agenda-monkeys and perfect-worlders have moved on, perhaps we can do some diving?"

RonMicjan

EXACTLY!

To define why I believe this is traitorous behaviour. If Alex was just pointing out faults, with no pony in the race, I can concede a few points to him, but it still looks like carpet bombing the beach, eliminating the competition, prior to invading. And we on RBW are allowing him to use this forum to further that invasion.

Mike, I will get to your talking points later tonight, i am getting on a plane, one that has two engines. But then my meg has two control systems, so I feel quite safe.

and you are still dead wrong about me inviting attorneys into my life, you obviously dont know me.

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JS1scuba

Hi Mem,

Having been an expert witness and subject matter expert on diving matters I can most assuredly tell you that it is not uncommon to engage an expert witness from a competitive manufacturer. In many situations it lends credibility to your case because why would a competitor help defend you? Second, it helps for future cases. If for example Company A can help Company B then both learn. This however only works when you have expert witnesses who have substantive backgrounds and there truly was no known manufacturing problem.

Competitors who serve as experts usually do a thorough job of running tests, simulations, re-enactments etc., to get to the bottom of the problem. Only then can they make a valid statement. These types of witnesses often are much more costly than just someone who renders an opinion. There are times when an expert concludes that there IS a problem. That expert allows the attorney to come to conclusions on his case before it gets to court. It allows the manufacturer to determine the viability of taking corrective measures, issuing a recall, or removing a product from sale. This also allows the defendant an option of pursuing a settlement or changing strategy.

I can’t tell you how many times I am contacted by a law firm to work a case, only to block me out of working for the opponent. It’s not uncommon when an incident occurs that all scramble at the beginning to lock in expert witnesses, even though no case has been brought yet. A big law firm will tie up witnesses and hold them in the wings just in case. The moment an expert witness takes a retainer he is locked into that case whether he works on it or not. The best experts will not take on a case that they do not believe has merit. There are a lot of hacks out there though.

This is an interesting thread. If nothing more than to allow people who are never involved in the process to have a better handle on what is involved in the process.

Cheers

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Joel Silverstein, VP COO
Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc.

http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com

mempilot

Joel,

Good to hear your thoughts in this thread. Hope the Cave training went well.

Providing expert witness against one's competition is defineatly a double-edged sword. I hope Tech Diving Limited, Golem Gear, and Dive Rite Express never get in a pissing match or start representing against each other in anything related to online dive gear sales. I think any participating members of such ugliness would not favor anyone in our community. Obviously, this isn't serious and couldn't happen.

The difference in my more plausible and applicable analogy about BMW and Mercedes is that they don't advertise on their websites that they are more than willing to provide testimony against each other. That would be bad PR and bad form. If BMW ever did post something like that, regardless the intentions, many would stop buying cars from them, and any Mercedes owner would have a hard time buying from BMW as well). Why alienate possible customers with public statements like this?

Joel, you and Dave S. get contacted to be expert witnesses, not because you post on your websites that you are willing to damn someone, but because you are respected in your fields. Alex will gain a lot more respect by reining in his predatory convictions some.

Now, I think I need to order a compact small face SPG on TDL, so I've got log off for now. Did I miss any St. Patt's Day special discount codes?

Take care,

Eric

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Eric Stadtmueller, otherwise known as, MEM "Da Pilot"