Megalodon or Pelagian

wearypanda · 3rd March 2008, 16:31

The Pelagian comes with provision for 3 cells as standard. It is up to the buyer to decide what (if anything) they want to do with the third cell. I currently have mine hooked into a dive computer which gives me two independent displays which in my humble view is a whole load safer than three combined with most people relying too heavily on a computer alerting them to one out of three being out of line. Combine this setup with 'instant validation' and cell readouts on the Pelagian handset to two decimal points (so you can see much more easily how the individual cells are responding) and I think this is almost the optimum setup.

I am in the process of adding a Rebreather Guardian HUD to my unit which will be driven by all three cells. The RG HUD is designed so that if it shorts it will not effect the main display. So, with three independent devices reading 2 + 1 cells I believe this will be as good as it gets; unless of course you want to trust a computer to monitor everything for you and for it to decide when to add O2 to the loop. Subject to vigilent monitoring by the diver of course....

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

One big con for the Pelagian is that it requires the owner to modify the unit to make it safe. 2 sensors just doesn't cut it. There are way too many dead divers to demonstrate this. Now, adding a 3rd sensor isn't that hard but expecting the diver to do it is just not good enough. I realise that the manufacturer thinks that 2 sensors is fine as we have been around and around on this before. It truly worried me that he didn't know sensors could fail high and low.

This is the thread in which it was discussed. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...agian-way.html

The rest of the points are great to read about but as an off the shelf product the pelagian is a non starter due to this deficiency IMO. Another thing to consider is. Which training agency will your C Card be from? Who will accept it? If I was shopping for a manual unit, I'd go the Classic KISS. Have fun making your choice.

henckell · 3rd March 2008, 19:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Thanks, dont know where i got the idea the cells face up

Maybe from this post:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...tml#post135516

"The cell membranes face up in a normal face down swimming position."

henckell · 3rd March 2008, 19:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo)

I never had any problems with the build quality of my Pelagian after about 300 hrs on the unit.

What kind of problems did you have after 300 hours?

**Gill Envy** · 3rd March 2008, 20:06

I guess you could see this as one big con or one big Pro depending on how you look at these things. At this point, i'm much more in favor of a manufacturer leaving it up to the diver to decide what the ideal computer might be for added redundancy. Not only are preferences all over the place, but the options keep changing. Seems to me that the pelagian has sided with user preference and flexibility as a high priority rather than trying to dictate what one's preferences should be and locking you into that choice well into the future. That's a big plus to me!

the fact that it's a manual addition rebreather likely has the over arching influence on risk outcomes. if the position of the diluent really does give you such a fast validation then I wouldn't be surprised if a single cell on this mCCR was more reliable than a 3 cell auto injection system... cell checks, injection rate, monitoring and maintaining... it's all built right into the system...it's a level of awareness that only the real threat of imminent deadly consequences can instill. there's just no waiting around for an alarm to sound. the typical injection and monitoring interval required to be even near set point on an mCCR encourages one to catch a problem long before it even becomes dangerous. it's called the school of livable consequences.

even if you left the number of sensors to two, show me one death on an mCCR, that as you say, "demonstrates that 2 sensors don't cut it". my guess is that you are mixing comparisons here, a 2 cell mCCR vs a 3 Cell eCCR with one of the cells broken... these are totally different kettles of fish.

g

Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve)

One big con for the Pelagian is that it requires the owner to modify the unit to make it safe. 2 sensors just doesn't cut it. There are way too many dead divers to demonstrate this. Now, adding a 3rd sensor isn't that hard but expecting the diver to do it is just not good enough. I realise that the manufacturer thinks that 2 sensors is fine as we have been around and around on this before. It truly worried me that he didn't know sensors could fail high and low.

This is the thread in which it was discussed. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...agian-way.html

The rest of the points are great to read about but as an off the shelf product the pelagian is a non starter due to this deficiency IMO. Another thing to consider is. Which training agency will your C Card be from? Who will accept it? If I was shopping for a manual unit, I'd go the Classic KISS. Have fun making your choice.

wearypanda · 3rd March 2008, 22:24

Absolutely spot on. I agree 100%

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

even if you left the number of sensors to two, show me one death on an mCCR, that as you say, "demonstrates that 2 sensors don't cut it". my guess is that you are mixing comparisons here, a 2 cell mCCR vs a 3 Cell eCCR with one of the cells broken... these are totally different kettles of fish.

g

rogeringebo · 3rd March 2008, 23:07

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

What kind of problems did you have after 300 hours?

I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that...
Like I said, no problems so far....

Roger

Drmike · 4th March 2008, 02:29

Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell)

Maybe from this post:

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...tml#post135516

"The cell membranes face up in a normal face down swimming position."

ah yes knew id read it somewhere. Andy is there any tech reason they point up when prone?

When your at ADEX feel free to leave one behind for me to have a play with

would love to get some dives on one. Better still lets go do some cave diving.

Got 6 (yes 6) undived sumps in Malaysia

and a couple of sink holes that need looking at

henckell · 4th March 2008, 08:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo)

I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that...

I don't understand...
Did you even own a Pelagian in 2006? You also seem to have forgotten that you only a few weeks ago had 500 hours on the Pelagian. Now you have 300...

http://www.rebreatherworld.com/photography-and-videography-with-your-rebreather/16638-mccr-or-eccr-for-video-filming-2.html#post162168

rogeringebo · 4th March 2008, 09:00

I have about 100-150 hrs on the KISS. Around 100 on the Meg and around 300 on the Pelagian. I started diving it in 2005 and got one of the first on the market in 2006.
I dont see what this have to do with build quality or choice of rebreather Henrik?
If you have a valuable opinion regarding the Pelagian vs the Meg please share it with us.

Best regards
Roger

Rebreatherlab · 4th March 2008, 10:44

Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo)

I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that...
Like I said, no problems so far....

Roger

"Cosmetical" Thanks for being gentle, Roger. In all honesty your CL's looked like someone had popped a hand grenade in them. All who received these had free replacements shipped out though. The current CL outer bags are ballistic Cordura 1680D, which is what wings are made of.

Cheers,

Andy

3rd March 2008, 16:31	#21 (permalink)
wearypanda New Member Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Pelagian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian The Pelagian comes with provision for 3 cells as standard. It is up to the buyer to decide what (if anything) they want to do with the third cell. I currently have mine hooked into a dive computer which gives me two independent displays which in my humble view is a whole load safer than three combined with most people relying too heavily on a computer alerting them to one out of three being out of line. Combine this setup with 'instant validation' and cell readouts on the Pelagian handset to two decimal points (so you can see much more easily how the individual cells are responding) and I think this is almost the optimum setup. I am in the process of adding a Rebreather Guardian HUD to my unit which will be driven by all three cells. The RG HUD is designed so that if it shorts it will not effect the main display. So, with three independent devices reading 2 + 1 cells I believe this will be as good as it gets; unless of course you want to trust a computer to monitor everything for you and for it to decide when to add O2 to the loop. Subject to vigilent monitoring by the diver of course.... Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) One big con for the Pelagian is that it requires the owner to modify the unit to make it safe. 2 sensors just doesn't cut it. There are way too many dead divers to demonstrate this. Now, adding a 3rd sensor isn't that hard but expecting the diver to do it is just not good enough. I realise that the manufacturer thinks that 2 sensors is fine as we have been around and around on this before. It truly worried me that he didn't know sensors could fail high and low. This is the thread in which it was discussed. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...agian-way.html The rest of the points are great to read about but as an off the shelf product the pelagian is a non starter due to this deficiency IMO. Another thing to consider is. Which training agency will your C Card be from? Who will accept it? If I was shopping for a manual unit, I'd go the Classic KISS. Have fun making your choice.
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3rd March 2008, 19:36	#22 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Thanks, dont know where i got the idea the cells face up Maybe from this post: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...tml#post135516 "The cell membranes face up in a normal face down swimming position." __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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3rd March 2008, 19:52	#23 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo) I never had any problems with the build quality of my Pelagian after about 300 hrs on the unit. What kind of problems did you have after 300 hours? __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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3rd March 2008, 20:06	#24 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian I guess you could see this as one big con or one big Pro depending on how you look at these things. At this point, i'm much more in favor of a manufacturer leaving it up to the diver to decide what the ideal computer might be for added redundancy. Not only are preferences all over the place, but the options keep changing. Seems to me that the pelagian has sided with user preference and flexibility as a high priority rather than trying to dictate what one's preferences should be and locking you into that choice well into the future. That's a big plus to me! the fact that it's a manual addition rebreather likely has the over arching influence on risk outcomes. if the position of the diluent really does give you such a fast validation then I wouldn't be surprised if a single cell on this mCCR was more reliable than a 3 cell auto injection system... cell checks, injection rate, monitoring and maintaining... it's all built right into the system...it's a level of awareness that only the real threat of imminent deadly consequences can instill. there's just no waiting around for an alarm to sound. the typical injection and monitoring interval required to be even near set point on an mCCR encourages one to catch a problem long before it even becomes dangerous. it's called the school of livable consequences. even if you left the number of sensors to two, show me one death on an mCCR, that as you say, "demonstrates that 2 sensors don't cut it". my guess is that you are mixing comparisons here, a 2 cell mCCR vs a 3 Cell eCCR with one of the cells broken... these are totally different kettles of fish. g Quote: (Originally Posted by Steve) One big con for the Pelagian is that it requires the owner to modify the unit to make it safe. 2 sensors just doesn't cut it. There are way too many dead divers to demonstrate this. Now, adding a 3rd sensor isn't that hard but expecting the diver to do it is just not good enough. I realise that the manufacturer thinks that 2 sensors is fine as we have been around and around on this before. It truly worried me that he didn't know sensors could fail high and low. This is the thread in which it was discussed. http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...agian-way.html The rest of the points are great to read about but as an off the shelf product the pelagian is a non starter due to this deficiency IMO. Another thing to consider is. Which training agency will your C Card be from? Who will accept it? If I was shopping for a manual unit, I'd go the Classic KISS. Have fun making your choice. __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
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3rd March 2008, 22:24	#25 (permalink)
wearypanda New Member Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Pelagian Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Wiltshire, UK Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Absolutely spot on. I agree 100% Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) even if you left the number of sensors to two, show me one death on an mCCR, that as you say, "demonstrates that 2 sensors don't cut it". my guess is that you are mixing comparisons here, a 2 cell mCCR vs a 3 Cell eCCR with one of the cells broken... these are totally different kettles of fish. g
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3rd March 2008, 23:07	#26 (permalink)
rogeringebo Done with bubbles Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 697	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) What kind of problems did you have after 300 hours? I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that... Like I said, no problems so far.... Roger Last edited by rogeringebo : 3rd March 2008 at 23:39.
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4th March 2008, 02:29	#27 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,165	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by henckell) Maybe from this post: http://www.rebreatherworld.com/pelag...tml#post135516 "The cell membranes face up in a normal face down swimming position." ah yes knew id read it somewhere. Andy is there any tech reason they point up when prone? When your at ADEX feel free to leave one behind for me to have a play with would love to get some dives on one. Better still lets go do some cave diving. Got 6 (yes 6) undived sumps in Malaysia and a couple of sink holes that need looking at __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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4th March 2008, 08:31	#28 (permalink)
henckell New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 90	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo) I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that... I don't understand... Did you even own a Pelagian in 2006? You also seem to have forgotten that you only a few weeks ago had 500 hours on the Pelagian. Now you have 300... http://www.rebreatherworld.com/photography-and-videography-with-your-rebreather/16638-mccr-or-eccr-for-video-filming-2.html#post162168 __________________ http://www.rekodeko.se
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4th March 2008, 09:00	#29 (permalink)
rogeringebo Done with bubbles Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 697	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian I have about 100-150 hrs on the KISS. Around 100 on the Meg and around 300 on the Pelagian. I started diving it in 2005 and got one of the first on the market in 2006. I dont see what this have to do with build quality or choice of rebreather Henrik? If you have a valuable opinion regarding the Pelagian vs the Meg please share it with us. Best regards Roger Last edited by rogeringebo : 4th March 2008 at 09:16.
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4th March 2008, 10:44	#30 (permalink)
Rebreatherlab RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Pelagian Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Classic Kiss Pelagian Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Thailand Posts: 200	Re: Megalodon or Pelagian Quote: (Originally Posted by rogeringebo) I had a cosmetical issue with the cover fabrics of the counter lungs 2006 but that was on a pair of prototype lungs so I do not count that... Like I said, no problems so far.... Roger "Cosmetical" Thanks for being gentle, Roger. In all honesty your CL's looked like someone had popped a hand grenade in them. All who received these had free replacements shipped out though. The current CL outer bags are ballistic Cordura 1680D, which is what wings are made of. Cheers, Andy __________________ www.rebreatherlab.com
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