The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question!

Abbo · 18th February 2008, 05:30

When my wife got back from the hospital after having our first child we thought we had survived an ordeal by fire. We thought that at least we were over the hard part. A friend memorably commented "it all gets steadily.....harder from here". I thought he had two pages of his speech stuck together, but he was telling the truth. The same was the case with rebreather diving: the hard part was not signing the credit card bill or even taking mod 1 training. The training doesn't let up and nor does the cost. Money saved on the unit sounds pretty penny wise and pound foolish if you do not end up getting what you wanted. Consumable costs are not insignificant either. Viewed with that in mind, pennies saved on the initial upfront cost sound meaningless in the big scheme of things.
At the moment, all you want to do is dive within recreational limits. That may well change. What is optionality worth?

Of the mCCRs, I very much liked the Pelagian: it's small, compact and extremely field serviceable. The Meg family of 'breathers are exceedingly rugged, well built and well thought out. If the Copis Meg had existed when I went CCR shopping it would most likely have been the unit I would have chosen - not least because it is upgradable to eCCR. I bought an eCCR Meg and am still pleased with that decision. Like my wife and children it continues to raid my wallet with abandon, but nothing important in life has a dollar value.

Moderators: wouldn't it make sense to make a "buying my first rebreather" forum to make it easier for people to find previous threads asking this question?

andrespp · 18th February 2008, 06:08

Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo)

Moderators: wouldn't it make sense to make a "buying my first rebreather" forum to make it easier for people to find previous threads asking this question?

As a newbie, I second that!

PCDiver · 18th February 2008, 06:41

Steve, a rebreather for recreational diving? Why not?

OK, it is riskier on current models because they are not designed for recreational diving. But what about the new rebreather from Poseidon based on CIS Lunar technology and know-how? This rebreather was designed especially for recreational rebreathers. The first model will not allow deco and mixed gas diving. It will also have a depth limit.

We did a video interview at Boot Dusseldorf with Sverker Palmblad from Poseidon. You can find the interview at Submerge Productions > Action! > Interviews

There will be an upgrade path to technical rebreather in future.

Then there is the Open Revolution rebreather technology. Based on what Alex has published there will be a model designed for recreational non-deco diving.

I believe there is a market for non-recreational rebreather diving.

Peter

**Gill Envy** · 18th February 2008, 07:28

I'd definitely skip sCCR's, too close in complexity and hassle to CCR's without most of the benefits. If you are OK with the limits and hassle of diving nitrox on doubles or simply adding a 40 cf pony to your single 80CF you can probably get a lot of what you are after.

The hassle and cost to CCR diving is considerable, don't kid yourself on that. A sport KISS just might be the way to go, but for an additional 2 grand you could get the Classic, which would give you more options down the line. Once you are in the 6K arena though you should also consider the Pelagian , rEVO and Copis meg. All are decent manual systems, and manual injection is plenty adequate for what you are talking about doing (heck, mCCR's are being used for just about any kind of diving).

What you will get for the hassle and expense that doubles and or a pony can't give you is incredible freedom, silence and warmth. You will enjoy vastly improved no decompression limits, vastly reduced narcosis at equivalent depths and a whole lot more gas duration than you are used to. I used to average between 35 mins and 60 mins to a dive. now 90 to 120 is common. The ability to stay in what I call the sweet spot of the dive has increased significantly. I used to rush to the max depth and then gradually work my way up. Now I take my time getting to the max depth and can stay there a lot longer.

If extra time is a high priority, whether deeper or shallow, then it can be worth it. I believe that with proper training and with adequate vigilance, manual rebreather diving within recreational limits may actually be "safer" than open circuit recreational diving.

if you have an opportunity to dive a lot and would really like having more time and choices, it just might be worth it for you even within recreational limits, it sure has been for me!

Andy Del · 18th February 2008, 08:05

Interesting thoughts. As I'm just up the coast from you Steve, here are my mine...

thevast majority of my dives on a Classic KISS are past the recreational range, mostlyin hte 50m mark, then 80, and a couple passt 100m. The CK works just fine at these depths. Using a Subsea display, HUD and a Shearwater computer gives about the nicest setup I've seen for this little rig.

I also take for shallow diveswhen I can. I've used it for 5m night dives with no issues, as it's a mCCR. this is the area totake note of. Electronics will try to keep tyour PO2 constant in the shallows when you change depth and this leads to bouyancy issues. Diving in 5m with a mCCR as an O2 rebreather is quite simple as there is just no solenoid.

If I was looking for a unit now - I'd go to the sports KISS sitting in Perth RIGHT NOW and grab it. Contact Steve! Or, a rEvoII is vreey nice. Geta mini one and you are laughing.

cheers

Andy

Dutchy · 18th February 2008, 08:38

I am one of the recreational rebreather divers on this board. Partly for reason no1, partly for reason number3 but mostly because I get to see all these little critters up close... Mike consistently omits that reason but many people with a camera made the Rebreather their tool in getting the shot.
I went the SK route and bought a used unit. The price for used units has dropped considerably over the last two years so it might be worth looking into. <shamelessplugmode> btw mine will be up for sale in a few weeks time now that I bought myself a slightly newer one</shaelessplugmode>

Hanssing · 18th February 2008, 09:11

Quote: (Originally Posted by digital_steve)

The trick is, for me, not owning lots of toys but owning the ones i want and i'm going to get the most use out of.
I'd hate to buy a full twins rig and then a couple of months later buy a a big shiney rebreather 'gadget'

The only time within your range (0-40msw with limited Deco) where you get advantage with a CCR over a SCR/OC is if youre not doing square profiles. If youre wreckdiving OC/SCR is still lower cost, and safer. You get extra NDL-time on a CCR, as you drift upwards becasuse the FO changes in the CCR, this is an advantage during reef-diving and other types of multilevel diving. But if youre allways ascending from bottom on a shot-line you can get the same bottom-times with one optimized EAN Backmix (OC/SCR) on a twinset.

However:
I was in the same position as you.
I like toys, but I'm also a cheap bastard....
It not that I need the Rebreather for the dives I do, or plan to do, It will be cheaper to do the few Trimix dives OC, but I really like the concept, and now I also really like to dive my rEvo.

I skipped the twinsetS, and have not regretted it. The stage you need anyway.

Read up on the mCCRs like: rEvo, Kiss, Pelagian etc.
The select the one the fits your wallet and configuration (I can only recommand the rEvo).
The jokers are the new eCCR wich are specifically aimed at your type of divers: CCRb Sentinel level I, and the POS MArk VI.
I'd still select the mCCR.

About gadets:
Right now, I'm waiting for my X1

Wich I'm going to dive OC EAN-classic with the GF

the first weeks.

Nicolai

**almity1** · 18th February 2008, 09:15

OK Steve

Since I am up the coast, I will put in my bit in as well.

Besides myself, there is another person who keeps within the recreational limit and that is Dave Harasti who is further up the coast, who dives a Sports KISS.

Both of us use our units for Photography and Dave of course for his research work, and I must admit I was helping out with his seahorse count on Saturday and that was at a depth of 3m and then 7m when I went looking for a Mystical Magical Reef that is suppose to have some rare Pygmy Yellow-Belly Sap Sucking Pipehorse on it, which was suppose to be in Sydney Harbour somewhere, after an hour we decided to turn around when it suddenly got dark and very loud with a sudden force of downward pressure. I think the Sydney Ferry had something to with it. All up on Saturday I was 2 and half hours underwater and I was flying my unit manually for the first part of the dive and I have the APECS Meg.

For me it is the time spent underwater, getting close to Fish Life and not bothering with surface intervals, on Sunday we went to Shelley Beach to see the Dusky Whaler Sharks @ about 8m.

Believe me they did come in close but not close enough for any good shots on the day. I will be out there on Wednesday Arvo trying to get some shots, with a Friend of mine who has an Inspo, he is videographer.

Of Course I have been to depth of 20m and 30m which are available on some of the Sydney Shore Dives and with the Rebreather I am swimming UW more and walking across the Rock less these days or as some people put it "Rock Hopping" less than I used to with OC, because of the time factor or the time a Rebreather gives you..

I dive my Rebreather whenever I can, serves my purposes.

Mike · 18th February 2008, 10:09

Steve
Over Christmas I got one of those magic days diving. No current, 25m vis, flat sea.
I did 30 minutes on the Nord (very photogenic wreck in ~42m in Tas for those who don't know it) on open circuit air, my mate on an inspo did 45, and only stopped at that so we were all on deco at about the same time. If I'd had my rebreather, we likely would have done an hour.

It was my only dive on it in 7 years of trying.

If someone had offered to sell me Dave Teubner's sports kiss (for sale for $3k atm)on the boat ramp that morning, I would have driven to the bank, got the money, and paid for it without a moments hesitation. I'd suggest you do the same thing.

Mike

Dr Mike, your life must truly suck.

An Exige may be a bit slower than one of the modern lotus 7 replicas, but they are still an awesome drive.

ianfirmin · 18th February 2008, 10:24

May I humbly suggest you have a go with a rebreather first. Try dives should be cheap and easy to obtain. You then have at least some personal data to go on.

All you will read here are other people's opinions. They may well be valuable but they are OTHER people.

ATB
Ian

18th February 2008, 05:30	#11 (permalink)
Abbo Nicholas Smith Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 445	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! When my wife got back from the hospital after having our first child we thought we had survived an ordeal by fire. We thought that at least we were over the hard part. A friend memorably commented "it all gets steadily.....harder from here". I thought he had two pages of his speech stuck together, but he was telling the truth. The same was the case with rebreather diving: the hard part was not signing the credit card bill or even taking mod 1 training. The training doesn't let up and nor does the cost. Money saved on the unit sounds pretty penny wise and pound foolish if you do not end up getting what you wanted. Consumable costs are not insignificant either. Viewed with that in mind, pennies saved on the initial upfront cost sound meaningless in the big scheme of things. At the moment, all you want to do is dive within recreational limits. That may well change. What is optionality worth? Of the mCCRs, I very much liked the Pelagian: it's small, compact and extremely field serviceable. The Meg family of 'breathers are exceedingly rugged, well built and well thought out. If the Copis Meg had existed when I went CCR shopping it would most likely have been the unit I would have chosen - not least because it is upgradable to eCCR. I bought an eCCR Meg and am still pleased with that decision. Like my wife and children it continues to raid my wallet with abandon, but nothing important in life has a dollar value. Moderators: wouldn't it make sense to make a "buying my first rebreather" forum to make it easier for people to find previous threads asking this question?
(Offline)

18th February 2008, 06:08	#12 (permalink)
andrespp New Member Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2007 Location: Cádiz (Spain) Posts: 47	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! Quote: (Originally Posted by Abbo) Moderators: wouldn't it make sense to make a "buying my first rebreather" forum to make it easier for people to find previous threads asking this question? As a newbie, I second that!
(Offline)

18th February 2008, 06:41	#13 (permalink)
PCDiver Submerge Productions Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Belgium Posts: 970	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! Steve, a rebreather for recreational diving? Why not? OK, it is riskier on current models because they are not designed for recreational diving. But what about the new rebreather from Poseidon based on CIS Lunar technology and know-how? This rebreather was designed especially for recreational rebreathers. The first model will not allow deco and mixed gas diving. It will also have a depth limit. We did a video interview at Boot Dusseldorf with Sverker Palmblad from Poseidon. You can find the interview at Submerge Productions > Action! > Interviews There will be an upgrade path to technical rebreather in future. Then there is the Open Revolution rebreather technology. Based on what Alex has published there will be a model designed for recreational non-deco diving. I believe there is a market for non-recreational rebreather diving. Peter __________________ >>>>> www.submergeproductions.com dedicated to promoting technical diving >>>>> Check out our dive show video interviews and Wreck dive videos >>>>> Now also on iTunes and Zune
(Online)

18th February 2008, 07:28	#14 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Divers Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,314	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! I'd definitely skip sCCR's, too close in complexity and hassle to CCR's without most of the benefits. If you are OK with the limits and hassle of diving nitrox on doubles or simply adding a 40 cf pony to your single 80CF you can probably get a lot of what you are after. The hassle and cost to CCR diving is considerable, don't kid yourself on that. A sport KISS just might be the way to go, but for an additional 2 grand you could get the Classic, which would give you more options down the line. Once you are in the 6K arena though you should also consider the Pelagian , rEVO and Copis meg. All are decent manual systems, and manual injection is plenty adequate for what you are talking about doing (heck, mCCR's are being used for just about any kind of diving). What you will get for the hassle and expense that doubles and or a pony can't give you is incredible freedom, silence and warmth. You will enjoy vastly improved no decompression limits, vastly reduced narcosis at equivalent depths and a whole lot more gas duration than you are used to. I used to average between 35 mins and 60 mins to a dive. now 90 to 120 is common. The ability to stay in what I call the sweet spot of the dive has increased significantly. I used to rush to the max depth and then gradually work my way up. Now I take my time getting to the max depth and can stay there a lot longer. If extra time is a high priority, whether deeper or shallow, then it can be worth it. I believe that with proper training and with adequate vigilance, manual rebreather diving within recreational limits may actually be "safer" than open circuit recreational diving. if you have an opportunity to dive a lot and would really like having more time and choices, it just might be worth it for you even within recreational limits, it sure has been for me! __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>
(Offline)

18th February 2008, 08:05	#15 (permalink)
Andy Del Classic KISSer Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Australia, Sunny Sydney Posts: 422	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! Interesting thoughts. As I'm just up the coast from you Steve, here are my mine... thevast majority of my dives on a Classic KISS are past the recreational range, mostlyin hte 50m mark, then 80, and a couple passt 100m. The CK works just fine at these depths. Using a Subsea display, HUD and a Shearwater computer gives about the nicest setup I've seen for this little rig. I also take for shallow diveswhen I can. I've used it for 5m night dives with no issues, as it's a mCCR. this is the area totake note of. Electronics will try to keep tyour PO2 constant in the shallows when you change depth and this leads to bouyancy issues. Diving in 5m with a mCCR as an O2 rebreather is quite simple as there is just no solenoid. If I was looking for a unit now - I'd go to the sports KISS sitting in Perth RIGHT NOW and grab it. Contact Steve! Or, a rEvoII is vreey nice. Geta mini one and you are laughing. cheers Andy __________________ Yellow - the colour of greatness!
(Online)

18th February 2008, 08:38	#16 (permalink)
Dutchy Rene Warries Current Rebreather/s: Sport Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Nieuwegein (The Netherlands) Posts: 769	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! I am one of the recreational rebreather divers on this board. Partly for reason no1, partly for reason number3 but mostly because I get to see all these little critters up close... Mike consistently omits that reason but many people with a camera made the Rebreather their tool in getting the shot. I went the SK route and bought a used unit. The price for used units has dropped considerably over the last two years so it might be worth looking into. <shamelessplugmode> btw mine will be up for sale in a few weeks time now that I bought myself a slightly newer one</shaelessplugmode> __________________ = This post is environmentally friendly. It is composed of 100% recycled electrons only. =
(Online)

18th February 2008, 09:11	#17 (permalink)
Hanssing flap-flop ..... flap-flop Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Denmark Posts: 406	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! Quote: (Originally Posted by digital_steve) The trick is, for me, not owning lots of toys but owning the ones i want and i'm going to get the most use out of. I'd hate to buy a full twins rig and then a couple of months later buy a a big shiney rebreather 'gadget' The only time within your range (0-40msw with limited Deco) where you get advantage with a CCR over a SCR/OC is if youre not doing square profiles. If youre wreckdiving OC/SCR is still lower cost, and safer. You get extra NDL-time on a CCR, as you drift upwards becasuse the FO changes in the CCR, this is an advantage during reef-diving and other types of multilevel diving. But if youre allways ascending from bottom on a shot-line you can get the same bottom-times with one optimized EAN Backmix (OC/SCR) on a twinset. However: I was in the same position as you. I like toys, but I'm also a cheap bastard.... It not that I need the Rebreather for the dives I do, or plan to do, It will be cheaper to do the few Trimix dives OC, but I really like the concept, and now I also really like to dive my rEvo. I skipped the twinsetS, and have not regretted it. The stage you need anyway. Read up on the mCCRs like: rEvo, Kiss, Pelagian etc. The select the one the fits your wallet and configuration (I can only recommand the rEvo). The jokers are the new eCCR wich are specifically aimed at your type of divers: CCRb Sentinel level I, and the POS MArk VI. I'd still select the mCCR. About gadets: Right now, I'm waiting for my X1 Wich I'm going to dive OC EAN-classic with the GF the first weeks. Nicolai __________________ Woohooo - I can change my rEvo! Its going to be bitchin' tricked out piece of gear
(Online)

18th February 2008, 09:15	#18 (permalink)
almity1 No Viz is BAD Viz Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Optima Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 173	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! OK Steve Since I am up the coast, I will put in my bit in as well. Besides myself, there is another person who keeps within the recreational limit and that is Dave Harasti who is further up the coast, who dives a Sports KISS. Both of us use our units for Photography and Dave of course for his research work, and I must admit I was helping out with his seahorse count on Saturday and that was at a depth of 3m and then 7m when I went looking for a Mystical Magical Reef that is suppose to have some rare Pygmy Yellow-Belly Sap Sucking Pipehorse on it, which was suppose to be in Sydney Harbour somewhere, after an hour we decided to turn around when it suddenly got dark and very loud with a sudden force of downward pressure. I think the Sydney Ferry had something to with it. All up on Saturday I was 2 and half hours underwater and I was flying my unit manually for the first part of the dive and I have the APECS Meg. For me it is the time spent underwater, getting close to Fish Life and not bothering with surface intervals, on Sunday we went to Shelley Beach to see the Dusky Whaler Sharks @ about 8m. Believe me they did come in close but not close enough for any good shots on the day. I will be out there on Wednesday Arvo trying to get some shots, with a Friend of mine who has an Inspo, he is videographer. Of Course I have been to depth of 20m and 30m which are available on some of the Sydney Shore Dives and with the Rebreather I am swimming UW more and walking across the Rock less these days or as some people put it "Rock Hopping" less than I used to with OC, because of the time factor or the time a Rebreather gives you.. I dive my Rebreather whenever I can, serves my purposes. __________________ Cheers almity1 - http://www.almity1.com Last edited by almity1 : 18th February 2008 at 09:17.
(Offline)

18th February 2008, 10:09	#19 (permalink)
Mike Prism 'prentice Current Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Evolution Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Melbourne Posts: 329	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! Steve Over Christmas I got one of those magic days diving. No current, 25m vis, flat sea. I did 30 minutes on the Nord (very photogenic wreck in ~42m in Tas for those who don't know it) on open circuit air, my mate on an inspo did 45, and only stopped at that so we were all on deco at about the same time. If I'd had my rebreather, we likely would have done an hour. It was my only dive on it in 7 years of trying. If someone had offered to sell me Dave Teubner's sports kiss (for sale for $3k atm)on the boat ramp that morning, I would have driven to the bank, got the money, and paid for it without a moments hesitation. I'd suggest you do the same thing. Mike Dr Mike, your life must truly suck. An Exige may be a bit slower than one of the modern lotus 7 replicas, but they are still an awesome drive. __________________ Open ....... Closed Mind ........ Loop Last edited by Mike : 18th February 2008 at 10:13.
(Offline)

18th February 2008, 10:24	#20 (permalink)
ianfirmin New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Hexham, Northumberland Posts: 53	Re: The dreaded 'recreational rebreather' question! May I humbly suggest you have a go with a rebreather first. Try dives should be cheap and easy to obtain. You then have at least some personal data to go on. All you will read here are other people's opinions. They may well be valuable but they are OTHER people. ATB Ian
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