too many alarms.....?

**nigelh** · 14th February 2008, 07:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies)

I was wondering if you guys know of an incident that was caused by a pure electronics malfunction (alarm not working properly or other) and I don't mean a malfunction caused by the diver but related to the electronics like not changing batteries.

I've bailed out to OC and then surfaced when I had a Vision display freeze. No alarms.

Payback for all those thousands of times I've look at it and it was all as normal...

Gilles · 14th February 2008, 11:14

Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies)

... I am thinking about the Meg.

Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies)

... but I was wondering if you guys know of an incident that was caused by a pure electronics malfunction (alarm not working properly or other) and I don't mean a malfunction caused by the diver but related to the electronics like not changing batteries.

Steve

The Meg has a very reliable set point controller. Probably so because it doesn't do much else but maintain SP. The operator tends to fail it.

I mis-welded a battery pack once upon a time and had the primary do a start-up sequence on the bottom of 60m dive

.

Icarusflies · 15th February 2008, 04:09

So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone?

Thanks;

Steve

diverreb · 15th February 2008, 04:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies)

So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone?

Thanks;

Steve

Electronics and salt water don't mix. Electronics are never fool proof. There are many things that can potentially cause issues at some point. If you do enough dives something will eventually bite you. Never assume that there can't be failures.

That being said, most of the major brands will perform well for the most part and if there is a failure and you are well trained, practice your skills, and carry enough Bail Out, you will come away from that failure unscathed.

There isn't one eCCR product line that hasn't had failures of some sort in a certain percent of their electronic components , and that includes O2ptimas, Megs & Inspirations as well as other eCCR's out there. Wires corrode, parts can get jarred loose, shorts happen, batteries fail, a manufacturing defect in a part or run of parts, cells fail, connections fail, and other sh*t can hit the fan. This isn't commonplace, but it does happen.

Many guys like to have back-ups. HH has dual handsets with Deco in both available. Other divers that only have a single computer with their units also use a second independent back up like a VR3, Cochran,or other back up.

Others just use one computer and feel if something brakes, just Bail out and head for home.

Your personal choices will depend on the type of diving you do, your risk tolerance, and the theories & logic you develop with the experiences you have.

You seem to be looking for an all encompassing statement that electronics will never fail you if you properly maintain them. No one can give you that guarantee.

Richie

**Gill Envy** · 15th February 2008, 17:03

If you are not manually injecting and a screen freezes, your chances of catching that the cells are not responding goes way down. And yes, I have seen the vision shut down without handing off, that was due to a poor battery that apparently couldn't keep up with the voltage requirements of the solenoid, voltage apparently dropped so fast that the hand off function failed. To deal with this possibility AP altered the battery management system to read the lowest output the battery gave during the dive, so when there was no load the reading wouldn't bounce back, this was meant to encourage folks to swap out the battereies more often. the thing is that the battery I was using looked fine, was the right brand and was brand new. Fact is, batteries are not 100% reliable, sometimes they don't do what they are supposed to, right out of the box. AP added a load check for the battery management system, a good idea, but overall, such an approach still goes in the direction of lulling reliance.

the other thing that we have not talked about is how false alarms undermine the reaction time and I've seen a few of those too. The OTU's on the vision, once exceeded, caused the buzzer to go off and the red lights to flash. The OTU's warning system treated the 1st day of diving as if it was your 11th, the system was so conservative that hearing that alarm and seeing the red lights became something you stopped seeing as an emergency, something you wanted to ignore. I hear AP has since then changed the OTU alarm to be suppressible. In any case, I think the false alarm mentality is an important thing to consider when assessing the pros and cons of alarms. If you find yourself ignoring an alarm for any reason, it's vital to pay extra close attention that you aren't ignoring a new, more serious problem that might be arising. When manufacturers draw the lines for you it can make you too reliant on their judgement or even worse, hold you to their limits when they are not appropriate to the diving you choose to do.

Certainly Alarms, if proven to reduce the risk of fatality, which so far they don't appear to, should at least be reserved for true emergencies to avoid the "cry wolf" phenomenon.

Between the bugs and failures we all read about and many of us experience first hadn't (many times more than what i've seen in OC computers). Whatever system you choose, fully automated or manual, best to assume it's just a matter of time before it fails.

IMHO,
g

Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies)

So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone?

Thanks;

Steve

Gobfish1 · 15th February 2008, 17:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy)

If you are not manually injecting and a screen freezes, your chances of catching that the cells are not responding goes way down. And yes, I have seen the vision shut down without handing off, that was due to a poor battery that apparently couldn't keep up with the voltage requirements of the solenoid, voltage apparently dropped so fast that the hand off function failed. To deal with this possibility AP altered the battery management system to read the lowest output the battery gave during the dive, so when there was no load the reading wouldn't bounce back, this was meant to encourage folks to swap out the battereies more often. the thing is that the battery I was using looked fine, was the right brand and was brand new. Fact is, batteries are not 100% reliable, sometimes they don't do what they are supposed to, right out of the box. AP added a load check for the battery management system, a good idea, but overall, such an approach still goes in the direction of lulling reliance.

the other thing that we have not talked about is how false alarms undermine the reaction time and I've seen a few of those too. The OTU's on the vision, once exceeded, caused the buzzer to go off and the red lights to flash. The OTU's warning system treated the 1st day of diving as if it was your 11th, the system was so conservative that hearing that alarm and seeing the red lights became something you stopped seeing as an emergency, something you wanted to ignore. I hear AP has since then changed the OTU alarm to be suppressible. In any case, I think the false alarm mentality is an important thing to consider when assessing the pros and cons of alarms. If you find yourself ignoring an alarm for any reason, it's vital to pay extra close attention that you aren't ignoring a new, more serious problem that might be arising. When manufacturers draw the lines for you it can make you too reliant on their judgement or even worse, hold you to their limits when they are not appropriate to the diving you choose to do.

Certainly Alarms, if proven to reduce the risk of fatality, which so far they don't appear to, should at least be reserved for true emergencies to avoid the "cry wolf" phenomenon.

Between the bugs and failures we all read about and many of us experience first hadn't (many times more than what i've seen in OC computers). Whatever system you choose, fully automated or manual, best to assume it's just a matter of time before it fails.

IMHO,
g

i think i a had a OTU's, edit CNS if that is what you ment , warning on one of my dive, i would be thinking the rig has a problem and i need to keep a close eye on it or call it a day ,,,

i dive the old type YBOD, not a lot of alarms on it ,,

RichardGreen · 15th February 2008, 19:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

i think i a had a OTU's warning on one of my dive, i would be thinking the rig has a problem and i need to keep a close eye on it or call it a day ,,,

i dive the old type YBOD, not a lot of alarms on it ,,

I think otu's are mixed up with cns's mr fish, if i'm wrong call it a day would be the option.

cheers

Richard

Gobfish1 · 15th February 2008, 20:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen)

I think otu's are mixed up with cns's mr fish, if i'm wrong call it a day would be the option.

cheers

Richard

me thinks you're right ,,, Mr Green ,, my unit as you know is v old like me, and dont have all the new fangle info , so i have to work out me CNs in me head as i go ,, times me cns count by 1.5 gives me my OTU , there about s
when i hit 100% CNS i say to my self beepbeep and keep on going ,,,

, would that be me "cry wolf" phenomenon.

when we having that drink ,, sir

RichardGreen · 16th February 2008, 00:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1)

me thinks you're right ,,, Mr Green ,, my unit as you know is v old like me, and dont have all the new fangle info , so i have to work out me CNs in me head as i go ,, times me cns count by 1.5 gives me my OTU , there about s
when i hit 100% CNS i say to my self beepbeep and keep on going ,,,

, would that be me "cry wolf" phenomenon.

when we having that drink ,, sir

2 weeks, I'll let you know,

Richard

Gobfish1 · 16th February 2008, 04:52

Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen)

2 weeks, I'll let you know,

Richard

and a curry

14th February 2008, 07:58	#11 (permalink)
nigelh New Member Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Brighton, Sussex, UK Posts: 824	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies) I was wondering if you guys know of an incident that was caused by a pure electronics malfunction (alarm not working properly or other) and I don't mean a malfunction caused by the diver but related to the electronics like not changing batteries. I've bailed out to OC and then surfaced when I had a Vision display freeze. No alarms. Payback for all those thousands of times I've look at it and it was all as normal... __________________ nigelh
(Online)

14th February 2008, 11:14	#12 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 762	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies) ... I am thinking about the Meg. Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies) ... but I was wondering if you guys know of an incident that was caused by a pure electronics malfunction (alarm not working properly or other) and I don't mean a malfunction caused by the diver but related to the electronics like not changing batteries. Steve The Meg has a very reliable set point controller. Probably so because it doesn't do much else but maintain SP. The operator tends to fail it. I mis-welded a battery pack once upon a time and had the primary do a start-up sequence on the bottom of 60m dive. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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15th February 2008, 04:09	#13 (permalink)
Icarusflies New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Miami Posts: 52	Re: too many alarms.....? So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone? Thanks; Steve
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15th February 2008, 04:59	#14 (permalink)
diverreb DE/MD/NJ Wreck Diver Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Dover, DE Posts: 560	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies) So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone? Thanks; Steve Electronics and salt water don't mix. Electronics are never fool proof. There are many things that can potentially cause issues at some point. If you do enough dives something will eventually bite you. Never assume that there can't be failures. That being said, most of the major brands will perform well for the most part and if there is a failure and you are well trained, practice your skills, and carry enough Bail Out, you will come away from that failure unscathed. There isn't one eCCR product line that hasn't had failures of some sort in a certain percent of their electronic components , and that includes O2ptimas, Megs & Inspirations as well as other eCCR's out there. Wires corrode, parts can get jarred loose, shorts happen, batteries fail, a manufacturing defect in a part or run of parts, cells fail, connections fail, and other sh*t can hit the fan. This isn't commonplace, but it does happen. Many guys like to have back-ups. HH has dual handsets with Deco in both available. Other divers that only have a single computer with their units also use a second independent back up like a VR3, Cochran,or other back up. Others just use one computer and feel if something brakes, just Bail out and head for home. Your personal choices will depend on the type of diving you do, your risk tolerance, and the theories & logic you develop with the experiences you have. You seem to be looking for an all encompassing statement that electronics will never fail you if you properly maintain them. No one can give you that guarantee. Richie
(Offline)

15th February 2008, 17:03	#15 (permalink)
Gill Envy Shearwater Copis Diver Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Evolution Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: seattle Posts: 1,302	Re: too many alarms.....? If you are not manually injecting and a screen freezes, your chances of catching that the cells are not responding goes way down. And yes, I have seen the vision shut down without handing off, that was due to a poor battery that apparently couldn't keep up with the voltage requirements of the solenoid, voltage apparently dropped so fast that the hand off function failed. To deal with this possibility AP altered the battery management system to read the lowest output the battery gave during the dive, so when there was no load the reading wouldn't bounce back, this was meant to encourage folks to swap out the battereies more often. the thing is that the battery I was using looked fine, was the right brand and was brand new. Fact is, batteries are not 100% reliable, sometimes they don't do what they are supposed to, right out of the box. AP added a load check for the battery management system, a good idea, but overall, such an approach still goes in the direction of lulling reliance. the other thing that we have not talked about is how false alarms undermine the reaction time and I've seen a few of those too. The OTU's on the vision, once exceeded, caused the buzzer to go off and the red lights to flash. The OTU's warning system treated the 1st day of diving as if it was your 11th, the system was so conservative that hearing that alarm and seeing the red lights became something you stopped seeing as an emergency, something you wanted to ignore. I hear AP has since then changed the OTU alarm to be suppressible. In any case, I think the false alarm mentality is an important thing to consider when assessing the pros and cons of alarms. If you find yourself ignoring an alarm for any reason, it's vital to pay extra close attention that you aren't ignoring a new, more serious problem that might be arising. When manufacturers draw the lines for you it can make you too reliant on their judgement or even worse, hold you to their limits when they are not appropriate to the diving you choose to do. Certainly Alarms, if proven to reduce the risk of fatality, which so far they don't appear to, should at least be reserved for true emergencies to avoid the "cry wolf" phenomenon. Between the bugs and failures we all read about and many of us experience first hadn't (many times more than what i've seen in OC computers). Whatever system you choose, fully automated or manual, best to assume it's just a matter of time before it fails. IMHO, g Quote: (Originally Posted by Icarusflies) So in 24 hours I only got two replay stating...one screen freezing which is an immediate "go to OC" and one "welding induced" issue.....Am I correct in thinking that electronics wont fail to give you a warning or give you a false warning, in other words it looks like electronics don't fail if let alone? Thanks; Steve __________________ Gill Envy ...Because I wasn't born with gills! ><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°>><(°> Last edited by Gill Envy : 15th February 2008 at 17:09.
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15th February 2008, 17:55	#16 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 364	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gill Envy) If you are not manually injecting and a screen freezes, your chances of catching that the cells are not responding goes way down. And yes, I have seen the vision shut down without handing off, that was due to a poor battery that apparently couldn't keep up with the voltage requirements of the solenoid, voltage apparently dropped so fast that the hand off function failed. To deal with this possibility AP altered the battery management system to read the lowest output the battery gave during the dive, so when there was no load the reading wouldn't bounce back, this was meant to encourage folks to swap out the battereies more often. the thing is that the battery I was using looked fine, was the right brand and was brand new. Fact is, batteries are not 100% reliable, sometimes they don't do what they are supposed to, right out of the box. AP added a load check for the battery management system, a good idea, but overall, such an approach still goes in the direction of lulling reliance. the other thing that we have not talked about is how false alarms undermine the reaction time and I've seen a few of those too. The OTU's on the vision, once exceeded, caused the buzzer to go off and the red lights to flash. The OTU's warning system treated the 1st day of diving as if it was your 11th, the system was so conservative that hearing that alarm and seeing the red lights became something you stopped seeing as an emergency, something you wanted to ignore. I hear AP has since then changed the OTU alarm to be suppressible. In any case, I think the false alarm mentality is an important thing to consider when assessing the pros and cons of alarms. If you find yourself ignoring an alarm for any reason, it's vital to pay extra close attention that you aren't ignoring a new, more serious problem that might be arising. When manufacturers draw the lines for you it can make you too reliant on their judgement or even worse, hold you to their limits when they are not appropriate to the diving you choose to do. Certainly Alarms, if proven to reduce the risk of fatality, which so far they don't appear to, should at least be reserved for true emergencies to avoid the "cry wolf" phenomenon. Between the bugs and failures we all read about and many of us experience first hadn't (many times more than what i've seen in OC computers). Whatever system you choose, fully automated or manual, best to assume it's just a matter of time before it fails. IMHO, g i think i a had a OTU's, edit CNS if that is what you ment , warning on one of my dive, i would be thinking the rig has a problem and i need to keep a close eye on it or call it a day ,,, i dive the old type YBOD, not a lot of alarms on it ,, __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3 Last edited by Gobfish1 : 15th February 2008 at 20:08.
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15th February 2008, 19:56	#17 (permalink)
RichardGreen Internet Dive Guru Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 140	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) i think i a had a OTU's warning on one of my dive, i would be thinking the rig has a problem and i need to keep a close eye on it or call it a day ,,, i dive the old type YBOD, not a lot of alarms on it ,, I think otu's are mixed up with cns's mr fish, if i'm wrong call it a day would be the option. cheers Richard
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15th February 2008, 20:06	#18 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 364	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen) I think otu's are mixed up with cns's mr fish, if i'm wrong call it a day would be the option. cheers Richard me thinks you're right ,,, Mr Green ,, my unit as you know is v old like me, and dont have all the new fangle info , so i have to work out me CNs in me head as i go ,, times me cns count by 1.5 gives me my OTU , there about s when i hit 100% CNS i say to my self beepbeep and keep on going ,,, , would that be me "cry wolf" phenomenon. when we having that drink ,, sir __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3 Last edited by Gobfish1 : 15th February 2008 at 21:12.
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16th February 2008, 00:18	#19 (permalink)
RichardGreen Internet Dive Guru Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: UK Posts: 140	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by Gobfish1) me thinks you're right ,,, Mr Green ,, my unit as you know is v old like me, and dont have all the new fangle info , so i have to work out me CNs in me head as i go ,, times me cns count by 1.5 gives me my OTU , there about s when i hit 100% CNS i say to my self beepbeep and keep on going ,,, , would that be me "cry wolf" phenomenon. when we having that drink ,, sir 2 weeks, I'll let you know, Richard
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16th February 2008, 04:52	#20 (permalink)
Gobfish1 Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Manchester UK Posts: 364	Re: too many alarms.....? Quote: (Originally Posted by RichardGreen) 2 weeks, I'll let you know, Richard and a curry __________________ Steve G Apparently not the only gay diver in the village http://drinkingliberally.org/blogs/o...nzee-glock.gif http://www.scubatunes.com/audio/vol01/mp3/HiTech.mp3
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