stop or going on ?

**jmurba** · 16th November 2007, 22:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso)

Jean Mi,

That is why I have always insisted on completely indepent systems. i. e. separate power supplies, cables and even a split isolated enclosure. I also have kept it as low tech as possible, no PIC, no bells, buzzers or lights.

When we have problems, (of course we do), we can limp home in relative safety.

One death on an MCCR is actually pretty good. There are far more ECCR.

Dale

yes true...

gibbogeo · 16th November 2007, 22:22

Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba)

does it means that we always have to be perfect machione to interpret oxymeters and sensor data to be able to survive underwater ?
is there any room for error ?
I don't know what to think about all of that ...even if kiss syle seem safe, i don't feel confortable anymore...
regards

There is very little room for errors. Kiss style is safe until the "logic" (the brain of the user) that manage it is awake and working.

You had the "5 minute of the stupid" (it is a translation of an italian sentence, don't know if exist in english) but you survived, so the machine have (very little) tolerance to mistakes. You where lowering the guard (previous dives with loss of signal), you was lucky that you can tell what happened and now i am certain you learned not to take the same risk again. I believe that "learning by doing" is the most efficient way of learning (it is also the most risky one).

So continue do dive with your "genetically modified" dolphin, i am sure you will not make again the same mistake (but there is still the space to make a lot of other, so always don't lower the guard).

dave t · 16th November 2007, 22:32

Jean Mi
thank you for sharing your experience, I am glad you here to give us all a valuable lesson.

Dave

O.C.Diver · 17th November 2007, 02:14

Jean Mi,

While the incident is obviously serious, you were likely at not as much risk as you first thought. To spike the loop to a 3.5 PO2 at 30 meters would require the loop to be almost 100% O2. This would have required you to have blown all the existing gas in the loop out, which it doesn't sound like you did. It is more likely that you pumped a large dose of O2 into the loop which ended up in front of the O2 sensors. While the loop did spike up, after the gases mixed in the loop (5 to 10 quick breaths), I think it would have been likely that the PO2 would have ended up below 1.6.

I also happen to agree 100% with Richie

Ted

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

I know we all sometimes get too fixated on our gauges & believing what they say, so it's easy to second guess here, but if I kept injecting O2 with no change to the sensor reading and particularly after reading through your post, hopefully I'd figure that something is wrong somewhere in the loop and bail out.

Doesn't really matter if it's sensor failure or another failure.... Get off the loop. I believe too much stock is put into "Staying on the loop." No data to support this but it's a gut feel that some of the Rebreather fatalities came from divers mindset of staying on the loop. There is no shame in bailing out and living to dive another day.

As to whether or not you you should give up Rebreather dives.... Only you can decide that one.

Richie

**jmurba** · 17th November 2007, 06:03

Quote: (Originally Posted by gibbogeo)

There is very little room for errors. Kiss style is safe until the "logic" (the brain of the user) that manage it is awake and working.

You had the "5 minute of the stupid" (it is a translation of an italian sentence, don't know if exist in english) but you survived, so the machine have (very little) tolerance to mistakes. You where lowering the guard (previous dives with loss of signal), you was lucky that you can tell what happened and now i am certain you learned not to take the same risk again. I believe that "learning by doing" is the most efficient way of learning (it is also the most risky one).

So continue do dive with your "genetically modified" dolphin, i am sure you will not make again the same mistake (but there is still the space to make a lot of other, so always don't lower the guard).

how long must we display the "L" plate on our rebreathers..?

**jmurba** · 17th November 2007, 06:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t)

Jean Mi
thank you for sharing your experience, I am glad you here to give us all a valuable lesson.

Dave

you are welcome, I think it is important ask for advice from others

**jmurba** · 17th November 2007, 07:20

Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver)

Jean Mi,

While the incident is obviously serious, you were likely at not as much risk as you first thought. To spike the loop to a 3.5 PO2 at 30 meters would require the loop to be almost 100% O2. This would have required you to have blown all the existing gas in the loop out, which it doesn't sound like you did. It is more likely that you pumped a large dose of O2 into the loop which ended up in front of the O2 sensors. While the loop did spike up, after the gases mixed in the loop (5 to 10 quick breaths), I think it would have been likely that the PO2 would have ended up below 1.6.

I also happen to agree 100% with Richie

Ted

Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb)

I know we all sometimes get too fixated on our gauges & believing what they say, so it's easy to second guess here, but if I kept injecting O2 with no change to the sensor reading and particularly after reading through your post, hopefully I'd figure that something is wrong somewhere in the loop and bail out.

Doesn't really matter if it's sensor failure or another failure.... Get off the loop. I believe too much stock is put into "Staying on the loop." No data to support this but it's a gut feel that some of the Rebreather fatalities came from divers mindset of staying on the loop. There is no shame in bailing out and living to dive another day.

As to whether or not you you should give up Rebreather dives.... Only you can decide that one.

Richie

hi ted,

Don't know what was my true po2 at 30m (the oxymeter was obviously ****ed, unable to climb as high as 2 bars) what I know is that on my way up after the injections when the oxymeter woke up it diplayed 2,5 at 20m ...83%....

as for the human/my inclination to stay on the loop, it must be have been unconscious... but in my case it has been a rather short stay, cause all of that lasted say 2 minutes...is it long enough to speak about bad inclination to stay on the loop ?

but this tendency really exist that's right I need a bov

regards

jean mi

seppu · 17th November 2007, 10:06

hi
same story from me.80m dive,i was piss`t off at target depth i run out of argon.po2 was under 0,8.no probem i push the button.still 0,8.another push,still 0,8.i am angry about the rebreather and me and push the putton.after 1 minute a have 1,8-2,0 po2.1 dilluent flush and the po2 was 1,6.we start to ascend (end of the bt 20min).po2 at the first stop 57 m was 1.2 and everything is ok.

**jmurba** · 17th November 2007, 12:02

Quote: (Originally Posted by seppu)

hi
same story from me.80m dive,i was piss`t off at target depth i run out of argon.po2 was under 0,8.no probem i push the button.still 0,8.another push,still 0,8.i am angry about the rebreather and me and push the putton.after 1 minute a have 1,8-2,0 po2.1 dilluent flush and the po2 was 1,6.we start to ascend (end of the bt 20min).po2 at the first stop 57 m was 1.2 and everything is ok.

I'am reassured not to be the only one in this situations

Guilhem · 18th November 2007, 20:38

Board, as this is my first post here, maybe a word of intro is welcomed: long time lurker here, longtime thinking about moving to Rebreather, I finally went ahead and decided for a mCCR unit, due next week. I will probably be back with more questions when it arrives

.
Jean-Michel, sure you had a "blonde moment", as you've always been telling me: watch the gauges when injecting, learn their pattern, this way you can detect if something goes wrong. And that time precisely, you haven't. For me, about to take the big leap, it's a valuable lesson, that maybe in 10 years of Rebreather diving, I'll stumble in the same trap. Hopefully then I'll remember.
I keep coming back to a suggestion I made to you already: build a couple of gauges, and make sure they don't share anything: mostly no common cable, no common cable gland, no nothing, ala "jetsam kiss".
Maybe add a "sensor puffer" as posted on Dave's site (Inspo modification) to blow off your cells. And keep on diving !

16th November 2007, 22:16	#11 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 862	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by bletso) Jean Mi, That is why I have always insisted on completely indepent systems. i. e. separate power supplies, cables and even a split isolated enclosure. I also have kept it as low tech as possible, no PIC, no bells, buzzers or lights. When we have problems, (of course we do), we can limp home in relative safety. One death on an MCCR is actually pretty good. There are far more ECCR. Dale yes true... __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

16th November 2007, 22:22	#12 (permalink)
gibbogeo Gilberto Bonaga, Italy Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: italy Posts: 318	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by jmurba) does it means that we always have to be perfect machione to interpret oxymeters and sensor data to be able to survive underwater ? is there any room for error ? I don't know what to think about all of that ...even if kiss syle seem safe, i don't feel confortable anymore... regards There is very little room for errors. Kiss style is safe until the "logic" (the brain of the user) that manage it is awake and working. You had the "5 minute of the stupid" (it is a translation of an italian sentence, don't know if exist in english) but you survived, so the machine have (very little) tolerance to mistakes. You where lowering the guard (previous dives with loss of signal), you was lucky that you can tell what happened and now i am certain you learned not to take the same risk again. I believe that "learning by doing" is the most efficient way of learning (it is also the most risky one). So continue do dive with your "genetically modified" dolphin, i am sure you will not make again the same mistake (but there is still the space to make a lot of other, so always don't lower the guard).
(Offline)

16th November 2007, 22:32	#13 (permalink)
dave t Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Sport Kiss Classic Kiss Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Dolphin Ray Azimuth Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts: 654	Re: stop or going on ? Jean Mi thank you for sharing your experience, I am glad you here to give us all a valuable lesson. Dave
(Online)

17th November 2007, 02:14	#14 (permalink)
O.C.Diver Helium Addict Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Salisbury MD USA Summers; Wandering Florida Winters Posts: 218	Re: stop or going on ? Jean Mi, While the incident is obviously serious, you were likely at not as much risk as you first thought. To spike the loop to a 3.5 PO2 at 30 meters would require the loop to be almost 100% O2. This would have required you to have blown all the existing gas in the loop out, which it doesn't sound like you did. It is more likely that you pumped a large dose of O2 into the loop which ended up in front of the O2 sensors. While the loop did spike up, after the gases mixed in the loop (5 to 10 quick breaths), I think it would have been likely that the PO2 would have ended up below 1.6. I also happen to agree 100% with Richie Ted Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) I know we all sometimes get too fixated on our gauges & believing what they say, so it's easy to second guess here, but if I kept injecting O2 with no change to the sensor reading and particularly after reading through your post, hopefully I'd figure that something is wrong somewhere in the loop and bail out. Doesn't really matter if it's sensor failure or another failure.... Get off the loop. I believe too much stock is put into "Staying on the loop." No data to support this but it's a gut feel that some of the Rebreather fatalities came from divers mindset of staying on the loop. There is no shame in bailing out and living to dive another day. As to whether or not you you should give up Rebreather dives.... Only you can decide that one. Richie __________________ Consider this my opinion.......sometimes I'm even right, but remember.........YMMV. Ted Green Charter Boat "OC Diver" http://www.ocdiver.com
(Online)

17th November 2007, 06:03	#15 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 862	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by gibbogeo) There is very little room for errors. Kiss style is safe until the "logic" (the brain of the user) that manage it is awake and working. You had the "5 minute of the stupid" (it is a translation of an italian sentence, don't know if exist in english) but you survived, so the machine have (very little) tolerance to mistakes. You where lowering the guard (previous dives with loss of signal), you was lucky that you can tell what happened and now i am certain you learned not to take the same risk again. I believe that "learning by doing" is the most efficient way of learning (it is also the most risky one). So continue do dive with your "genetically modified" dolphin, i am sure you will not make again the same mistake (but there is still the space to make a lot of other, so always don't lower the guard). how long must we display the "L" plate on our rebreathers..? __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

17th November 2007, 06:05	#16 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 862	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by dave t) Jean Mi thank you for sharing your experience, I am glad you here to give us all a valuable lesson. Dave you are welcome, I think it is important ask for advice from others __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

17th November 2007, 07:20	#17 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 862	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by O.C.Diver) Jean Mi, While the incident is obviously serious, you were likely at not as much risk as you first thought. To spike the loop to a 3.5 PO2 at 30 meters would require the loop to be almost 100% O2. This would have required you to have blown all the existing gas in the loop out, which it doesn't sound like you did. It is more likely that you pumped a large dose of O2 into the loop which ended up in front of the O2 sensors. While the loop did spike up, after the gases mixed in the loop (5 to 10 quick breaths), I think it would have been likely that the PO2 would have ended up below 1.6. I also happen to agree 100% with Richie Ted Quote: (Originally Posted by diverreb) I know we all sometimes get too fixated on our gauges & believing what they say, so it's easy to second guess here, but if I kept injecting O2 with no change to the sensor reading and particularly after reading through your post, hopefully I'd figure that something is wrong somewhere in the loop and bail out. Doesn't really matter if it's sensor failure or another failure.... Get off the loop. I believe too much stock is put into "Staying on the loop." No data to support this but it's a gut feel that some of the Rebreather fatalities came from divers mindset of staying on the loop. There is no shame in bailing out and living to dive another day. As to whether or not you you should give up Rebreather dives.... Only you can decide that one. Richie hi ted, Don't know what was my true po2 at 30m (the oxymeter was obviously ****ed, unable to climb as high as 2 bars) what I know is that on my way up after the injections when the oxymeter woke up it diplayed 2,5 at 20m ...83%.... as for the human/my inclination to stay on the loop, it must be have been unconscious... but in my case it has been a rather short stay, cause all of that lasted say 2 minutes...is it long enough to speak about bad inclination to stay on the loop ? but this tendency really exist that's right I need a bov regards jean mi __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

17th November 2007, 10:06	#18 (permalink)
seppu i ko nix dafüa Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: bayern Posts: 196	Re: stop or going on ? hi same story from me.80m dive,i was piss`t off at target depth i run out of argon.po2 was under 0,8.no probem i push the button.still 0,8.another push,still 0,8.i am angry about the rebreather and me and push the putton.after 1 minute a have 1,8-2,0 po2.1 dilluent flush and the po2 was 1,6.we start to ascend (end of the bt 20min).po2 at the first stop 57 m was 1.2 and everything is ok.
(Online)

17th November 2007, 12:02	#19 (permalink)
jmurba wet bear Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Home Build Join Date: May 2006 Location: cannes france Posts: 862	Re: stop or going on ? Quote: (Originally Posted by seppu) hi same story from me.80m dive,i was piss`t off at target depth i run out of argon.po2 was under 0,8.no probem i push the button.still 0,8.another push,still 0,8.i am angry about the rebreather and me and push the putton.after 1 minute a have 1,8-2,0 po2.1 dilluent flush and the po2 was 1,6.we start to ascend (end of the bt 20min).po2 at the first stop 57 m was 1.2 and everything is ok. I'am reassured not to be the only one in this situations __________________ when will I be able to think about something else then spending hours underwater, when will I be normal ? http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_2/home.html http://web.mac.com/jmurba/Site_3/home.html
(Online)

18th November 2007, 20:38	#20 (permalink)
Guilhem New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: South-East France Posts: 72	Re: stop or going on ? Board, as this is my first post here, maybe a word of intro is welcomed: long time lurker here, longtime thinking about moving to Rebreather, I finally went ahead and decided for a mCCR unit, due next week. I will probably be back with more questions when it arrives . Jean-Michel, sure you had a "blonde moment", as you've always been telling me: watch the gauges when injecting, learn their pattern, this way you can detect if something goes wrong. And that time precisely, you haven't. For me, about to take the big leap, it's a valuable lesson, that maybe in 10 years of Rebreather diving, I'll stumble in the same trap. Hopefully then I'll remember. I keep coming back to a suggestion I made to you already: build a couple of gauges, and make sure they don't share anything: mostly no common cable, no common cable gland, no nothing, ala "jetsam kiss". Maybe add a "sensor puffer" as posted on Dave's site (Inspo modification) to blow off your cells. And keep on diving !
(Online)

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