Argon and Oxygen

Håkan K · 16th November 2007, 13:05

Hi,

In order not to hijack another thread I started another...

I must confess that I did not know that the residual gas if/ when oxygen is produced is Argon. Is this because of the process, or? Why? I thought Argon was a non reactive gas. Is Argon harder than other gases to filter out?

edited:
This was pointed out in Ales Deas post no 253 in this thread http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...idents-26.html ..."Do not allow users to use anything other than 99.5% O2. Too many fools do not realise that the other % is argon, and that argon builds up and then anaesthetises the diver."....

**PhilSiswick** · 16th November 2007, 13:15

Quote: (Originally Posted by Håkan K)

Hi,

In order not to hijack another thread I started another...

I must confess that I did not know that the residual gas if/ when oxygen is produced is Argon. Is this because of the process, or? Why? I thought Argon was a non reactive gas. Is Argon harder than other gases to filter out?

I didn't know this either and a quick google didn't elicit the answer, so hopefully someone who does know will be along soon.

Not entirely on topic, but very interesting in the context. Does anyone know more? SpringerLink - Journal Article

Cheers,

paulraymaekers · 16th November 2007, 14:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick)

I didn't know this either and a quick google didn't elicit the answer, so hopefully someone who does know will be along soon.

Not entirely on topic, but very interesting in the context. Does anyone know more? SpringerLink - Journal Article

Cheers,

sorry guys, but I messed up completely to different technologies: what follows is nonsence (see post 5 and 6):

well actually I don't think it's true.

If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced.
('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane)

the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time

if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care

regards
paul

**PhilSiswick** · 16th November 2007, 14:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

well actually I don't think it's true.

If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced.
('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane)

the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time

if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care

regards
paul

Hi Paul,

Many thanks - that's consistent with what I've managed to find on the net. Very comforting.

Cheers,

***jradomski*** · 16th November 2007, 18:32

Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers)

well actually I don't think it's true.

If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced.
('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane)

the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time

if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care

regards
paul

Paul..
Nope..

Oxygen is not produced from a membrane.. NITROX is.. They use different technology

Oxygen in most remote locations is produced by a PSA system ( pressure swing absorption - some use VSA - whicg basically works the same but uses vacuum)) A perfectly functioning system prioduces 95.4% o2 4.5% argon and .1% trace gases.. If the o2 percentage is lower, that generally means that they are running a higher flow rate allowing a slightly lower o2 percentage produces ALOT more gas.. with the higher flow rate the addition gas is nitrogen so if you get 92% then you have 3.4% n2...

Nothing is filtered, in a PSA system the nitrogen is ABSORBED by bonding with a synthetic zeolite.. once its saturated the production is switched to a second chamber while the "bonded" nitrogen is forced to release freeing up the zeolite again..

There are PSA systems that can produce 99.9% o2 but they are very costly as they are effectively 2 systems. 1 that removes nitrogen and one that uses a different chemical to remove the argon..

The systems are meant to conform to an alternate "medical" grade standard.. That being 93% +/- 3%..

paulraymaekers · 16th November 2007, 19:55

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Paul..
Nope..

hello, seems i mixed up two different technologies: i learned again something new today

thanks joe!

paul

ruiner · 16th November 2007, 20:41

What about producing oxygen via electrolysis from distilled water:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would oxygen produced that way have argon too in real life?

I believe this process is used in home fuel depots for Honda fuelcell cars. Principle is simple at least... Oxygen is byproduct. I was thinking this because I plan to fit a sailboat for a loooong journey and it would provide energy for cooking or fuelcell as well as gas for diving

Oxygen would have to bagged with compressor of course which might be an invitation for a disaster....

Pacific ocean is vast and O2 supply depots far apart (or so I imagine)

--- Kari K

paulraymaekers · 16th November 2007, 21:45

Quote: (Originally Posted by ruiner)

What about producing oxygen via electrolysis from distilled water:
Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Would oxygen produced that way have argon too in real life?

I believe this process is used in home fuel depots for Honda fuelcell cars. Principle is simple at least... Oxygen is byproduct. I was thinking this because I plan to fit a sailboat for a loooong journey and it would provide energy for cooking or fuelcell as well as gas for diving

Oxygen would have to bagged with compressor of course which might be an invitation for a disaster....

Pacific ocean is vast and O2 supply depots far apart (or so I imagine)

--- Kari K

I'll give it another shot :-), but I THINK that it requires far more energy then the other technologies.... and where on a sailboat would you get that amount of energy??

paul

Abbo · 16th November 2007, 23:29

High purity oxygen is made by cryogenic fractional distillation - splitting air by the boiling points of its constituents. Nitrogen boils at -195.79 degrees C, Argon at -185.85 degrees and Oxygen at -182.95 degrees. The main impurity would be Argon, as the constituent of air with the boiling point closest to Oxygen.

Pressure Swing Adsorption sieves out the nitrogen, so it leaves behind the argon that makes up 0.93% of air.

Either way you're stuck with narcotic argon.

Incidentally, in PSA, the nitrogen is not absorbed by the zeolite but sticks to it and is released periodically, so the process is called adsorption.

Håkan K · 17th November 2007, 10:11

Hi all,

Thanks for teaching me something new

. But I still don't know why the Argon is "produced" at the same time as the Oxygen. Is it due to the process?

16th November 2007, 13:05	#1 (permalink)
Håkan K Beginning to learn Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 65	Argon and Oxygen Hi, In order not to hijack another thread I started another... I must confess that I did not know that the residual gas if/ when oxygen is produced is Argon. Is this because of the process, or? Why? I thought Argon was a non reactive gas. Is Argon harder than other gases to filter out? edited: This was pointed out in Ales Deas post no 253 in this thread http://www.rebreatherworld.com/rebre...idents-26.html ..."Do not allow users to use anything other than 99.5% O2. Too many fools do not realise that the other % is argon, and that argon builds up and then anaesthetises the diver.".... __________________ Håkan Beginning to learn Last edited by Håkan K : 16th November 2007 at 13:29.
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16th November 2007, 13:15	#2 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 884	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by Håkan K) Hi, In order not to hijack another thread I started another... I must confess that I did not know that the residual gas if/ when oxygen is produced is Argon. Is this because of the process, or? Why? I thought Argon was a non reactive gas. Is Argon harder than other gases to filter out? I didn't know this either and a quick google didn't elicit the answer, so hopefully someone who does know will be along soon. Not entirely on topic, but very interesting in the context. Does anyone know more? SpringerLink - Journal Article Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
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16th November 2007, 14:48	#3 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,381	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by PhilSiswick) I didn't know this either and a quick google didn't elicit the answer, so hopefully someone who does know will be along soon. Not entirely on topic, but very interesting in the context. Does anyone know more? SpringerLink - Journal Article Cheers, sorry guys, but I messed up completely to different technologies: what follows is nonsence (see post 5 and 6): well actually I don't think it's true. If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced. ('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane) the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care regards paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials... Last edited by paulraymaekers : 16th November 2007 at 19:53.
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16th November 2007, 14:56	#4 (permalink)
PhilSiswick WSKD 0001 Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Oxford, UK Posts: 884	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) well actually I don't think it's true. If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced. ('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane) the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care regards paul Hi Paul, Many thanks - that's consistent with what I've managed to find on the net. Very comforting. Cheers, __________________ Phil No comment on open circuit... it's an evolutionary dead end not really worth discussing here. Dave Sutton, 2007 I have always felt that the dive I am on is not nearly important as the dives I plan to be on the rest of my life. Tom Rose, 2007 www.hugsac.org.uk
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16th November 2007, 18:32	#5 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 2,817	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by paulraymaekers) well actually I don't think it's true. If on remote locations you only get 94-96% oxigen, then the rest is mainly nitrogen, because of the way the oxigen is produced. ('pressure swing' or how is it called, when oxigen is produced by pushing air true a membrane) the only problem is when you dive trimix, in that case your neutral gas in the mix is not that good known, cause nitrogen is added to the mix all the time if the oxigen is produced by cryogenic 'decanting', then the non-oxigen content can be either argon or nitrogen, but in that case we talk about oxigen of 99.99... pure, so the rest ... I don't care regards paul Paul.. Nope.. Oxygen is not produced from a membrane.. NITROX is.. They use different technology Oxygen in most remote locations is produced by a PSA system ( pressure swing absorption - some use VSA - whicg basically works the same but uses vacuum)) A perfectly functioning system prioduces 95.4% o2 4.5% argon and .1% trace gases.. If the o2 percentage is lower, that generally means that they are running a higher flow rate allowing a slightly lower o2 percentage produces ALOT more gas.. with the higher flow rate the addition gas is nitrogen so if you get 92% then you have 3.4% n2... Nothing is filtered, in a PSA system the nitrogen is ABSORBED by bonding with a synthetic zeolite.. once its saturated the production is switched to a second chamber while the "bonded" nitrogen is forced to release freeing up the zeolite again.. There are PSA systems that can produce 99.9% o2 but they are very costly as they are effectively 2 systems. 1 that removes nitrogen and one that uses a different chemical to remove the argon.. The systems are meant to conform to an alternate "medical" grade standard.. That being 93% +/- 3%.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 16th November 2007 at 18:38.
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16th November 2007, 19:55	#6 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,381	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Paul.. Nope.. hello, seems i mixed up two different technologies: i learned again something new today thanks joe! paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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16th November 2007, 20:41	#7 (permalink)
ruiner New Member Current Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Finland Posts: 8	Re: Argon and Oxygen What about producing oxygen via electrolysis from distilled water: Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Would oxygen produced that way have argon too in real life? I believe this process is used in home fuel depots for Honda fuelcell cars. Principle is simple at least... Oxygen is byproduct. I was thinking this because I plan to fit a sailboat for a loooong journey and it would provide energy for cooking or fuelcell as well as gas for diving Oxygen would have to bagged with compressor of course which might be an invitation for a disaster.... Pacific ocean is vast and O2 supply depots far apart (or so I imagine) --- Kari K
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16th November 2007, 21:45	#8 (permalink)
paulraymaekers rEvo's daddy Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Home Build Join Date: May 2005 Location: belgium Posts: 1,381	Re: Argon and Oxygen Quote: (Originally Posted by ruiner) What about producing oxygen via electrolysis from distilled water: Electrolysis of water - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Would oxygen produced that way have argon too in real life? I believe this process is used in home fuel depots for Honda fuelcell cars. Principle is simple at least... Oxygen is byproduct. I was thinking this because I plan to fit a sailboat for a loooong journey and it would provide energy for cooking or fuelcell as well as gas for diving Oxygen would have to bagged with compressor of course which might be an invitation for a disaster.... Pacific ocean is vast and O2 supply depots far apart (or so I imagine) --- Kari K I'll give it another shot :-), but I THINK that it requires far more energy then the other technologies.... and where on a sailboat would you get that amount of energy?? paul __________________ www.rEvo-rebreathers.com .... the earth is flat, Elvis is alive, and radial scrubbers give longer dwell time than axials...
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16th November 2007, 23:29	#9 (permalink)
Abbo Going down on Meg Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tokyo Posts: 389	Re: Argon and Oxygen High purity oxygen is made by cryogenic fractional distillation - splitting air by the boiling points of its constituents. Nitrogen boils at -195.79 degrees C, Argon at -185.85 degrees and Oxygen at -182.95 degrees. The main impurity would be Argon, as the constituent of air with the boiling point closest to Oxygen. Pressure Swing Adsorption sieves out the nitrogen, so it leaves behind the argon that makes up 0.93% of air. Either way you're stuck with narcotic argon. Incidentally, in PSA, the nitrogen is not absorbed by the zeolite but sticks to it and is released periodically, so the process is called adsorption. Last edited by Abbo : 16th November 2007 at 23:33.
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17th November 2007, 10:11	#10 (permalink)
Håkan K Beginning to learn Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: May 2005 Location: Sweden Posts: 65	Re: Argon and Oxygen Hi all, Thanks for teaching me something new. But I still don't know why the Argon is "produced" at the same time as the Oxygen. Is it due to the process? __________________ Håkan Beginning to learn Last edited by Håkan K : 17th November 2007 at 10:55.
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