Wing as a BOB?

Marc T · 9th October 2007, 14:00

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

I'm sure I've seen a thread along the same lines previously. Anyone been using their wing as a BOB?

With a few hours to spare, an ABLJ that I got for a tenner off ebay, what's left of my old Ray and my spare DSV (from a Draeger FGT):

My new bailout rebreather!

The idea is:
- no electronics, it's purely a manual SCR. Breathe in, out, in, out, in, out, dump, add new gas, go back to start or pure O2 CCR mode at 6m
- no ADV, because it's running as my BCD there will always be a bit of gas in it
- no real change in kit loading, it's the BCD, it's running off gas I'm carrying anyway so no extra bottles, the only extra item is the scrubber which is small

I had a go on it the other day and I have to say I was impressed at how compact it felt (other than ABLJ's being shite for diving with in general). It worked as a manual SCR (I did a bit on pure O2 mode just to check it all worked), it wasn't a super-performer but it did work.

The next step if it proves viable is to move on to a wing so that I'm diving on exactly the same kit as I was before except for a small scrubber plugged in the bottom of the wing. I'm also considering the addition of a single cell but on the other hand, I know my manual SCR rates.

Before I waste any more money, has anyone else done it? The WOB with the chest mount was OK, I'm curious as to what it will be like with a wing. I'm curious too if I'm

I'd also like to know what the max depth for a Ray scrubber would be in SCR mode. At the moment it's split as to whether I'm considering deep bailout or a way of making deco gas go further on cave dives if I needed to go OC (or where the 6m stop is pushing the KISS over its 3hrs).

Cheers,
Stuart

Many of us have been playing with that idea of using the wing as a counterlung, in fact there is many problem to solve ( what gaz in the wing?, problems on ascent, trim and wob if using a wing ) and finally it appears that doing it that way you are putting many eggs in a single and bad basket.

The only problem you solve that way is the ADV, but so you get a new buoyancy problem.

IMHO thats just a thing to play with, same thing for the idea of using the drysuit as a CL.

A bailout Rebreather must be very reliable and dont create to much problem, I turned my mind recently after an incident

and actualy dive my BOB as a main breather till I am totaly confident and comfortable with it... Thats mean several hours dives and at least intentional dives reaching the depth of the previous first deep stops.

For the Ray scruber I use it up to 40 m.

Cheers

Marc

As for the "manual SCR" in emergency

lizardland · 9th October 2007, 14:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

Define "flexible"...

Exactly. A granular powder can behave like a liquid. Get the granule shape right and you've got a flexible scrubber.

jaap · 9th October 2007, 16:01

I did some related stuff using a wing of a collar style wing a a CL for a pendulum.

FOTO

FOTO

Connecting the breathing hose to the lower dump:
FOTO

Or via the top dump:
FOTO

Anyway its important the wing is not too large so that it can float away like the wings on a bat.

Did som thinking about turning it into a dual hose Rebreather-with the cannister either on the side of the backplate or behind the head. Never got time to follow up on that.

Crazyduck · 9th October 2007, 16:07

This was an article on a bob unit.
Abyss Vampyr
Link- Abyss Vampyr
Credit given to Re breathers worldwide.
This was from Boot 2006

No word since.
Andrew

teomannaskali · 9th October 2007, 16:42

Abyss Vampyr

thats not a rebreather! That is a vaccum cleaner

koputai · 9th October 2007, 22:49

Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz)

Of course soemone with 1/2 a brain would have the hose a large enough diameter so that you could fill it with scrubber material and then you don't need a seperate scrubber- just a hose, a CL and that's your lot.

The Japs are already a step ahead of that. Check out the Eoba rebreather from the early 90's.
The sorb is in the little canister behind your head, and the breathing hoses are also the counterlung.

Cheers,
Jason.

EobaDSCN0525.jpg

johnv · 10th October 2007, 06:18

We used this idea in the Truffe earlier this year. Rick & I had one rebreather each and carried parts between us to turn a wing into a semi closed CCR.

The idea being to get back one sump at a time and change the slime every sump from the main CCR's. We had suitable equipment to dry out flooded slime between sumps.

The hose is too small bore to be a useful scrubber. Dave Mager made a series of small scrubbers which can be fitted in-line into the wing hoze [ on dry land ]

This was a "limp home" plan, there are a lot of problems with trying to have a ready to go dual purpose wing.

1. no decent mouthpiece exists that is both an inflator and a decent rebreather mouthpiece.
2. Wings ship a load of water in normal use.
3. you ought to empty the wing of gas to begin using it as a rebreather.
4. bouyancy
5. WOB
6. Volume of slime that can be stored out of the way in the hoze vs duration

If this is of interest, I can post pictures of scrubbers. In short, I found that for a real, reliable bail out breather a wing can only be used as both if you can change it's usage on the surface. (great for multi sump caves )

For this reason, I replaced the wing with an ortlieb bag and it works great.

John

lizardland · 10th October 2007, 09:37

Quote: (Originally Posted by johnv)

We used this idea in the Truffe earlier this year. Rick & I had one rebreather each and carried parts between us to turn a wing into a semi closed CCR.

The idea being to get back one sump at a time and change the slime every sump from the main CCR's. We had suitable equipment to dry out flooded slime between sumps.

The hose is too small bore to be a useful scrubber. Dave Mager made a series of small scrubbers which can be fitted in-line into the wing hoze [ on dry land ]

This was a "limp home" plan, there are a lot of problems with trying to have a ready to go dual purpose wing.

1. no decent mouthpiece exists that is both an inflator and a decent rebreather mouthpiece.
2. Wings ship a load of water in normal use.
3. you ought to empty the wing of gas to begin using it as a rebreather.
4. bouyancy
5. WOB
6. Volume of slime that can be stored out of the way in the hoze vs duration

If this is of interest, I can post pictures of scrubbers. In short, I found that for a real, reliable bail out breather a wing can only be used as both if you can change it's usage on the surface. (great for multi sump caves )

For this reason, I replaced the wing with an ortlieb bag and it works great.

John

Getting water in was something that I was worried about, especially as the OPV on the ABLJ where the scrubber hooks up is probably the lowest point in the bag. My plan for the wing was to have a short flexible hose take off from the waist mounted scrubber and up the back of the wing, hooking in maybe 150mm or so up. This worked OK when I was using a sidemount Rebreather a couple of years ago at keeping water out the scrubber.

I'd ruled out the inflator hose because of the bore anyway so went for a traditional two hose loop, one hose to the bottom left, one to the bottom right with the DSV hooked behind my head out the way. It's really only there as for use as a BCD and for manual gas addition.

The Ray scrubber worked quite well because it isn't much different from a light battery in size, it could be worn on the waist belt out the way too. It wasn't really much of an increase in kit load. It's probably too small to be used for anything other than getting to your next gas source deep.

Buoyancy is the big compromise though. The ABLJ is 18kg rated which is way too big for a lung and maybe a bit too small for a BCD with a flooded Rebreather. I wanted to get away from a dedicated bag though because it meant another bag to control buoyancy on or at least keep at ambient pressure (not sure what sort of pressure gradient the scrubber is designed for), I didn't want an ADV (another thing to freeflow).

Any idea what the WOB of the wing was like in that position (apart from the resistance of the inflator)? Wouldn't imagine it's much different from a normal backmount.

You're right, it is a limp home system. I'm in France next week so I'll probably leave it at 6m for backup O2 deco for the moment until I can find a cheap wing to butcher.

Cheers,

Stuart

Marc T · 10th October 2007, 10:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

though because it meant another bag to control buoyancy on or at least keep at ambient pressure
Stuart

Out of topic regarding yhe actual thread of "wing as a counterlung", but on topic with what you said there, I use for a while now with constant succes and ease a side monunted Rebreather where, when not in use the breathing hoses and the O2 display are packed inside the body of the RB and so constantly collapse the counterlung.

In that way this Rebreather ifitted with an ADV and exhaust valve is neutral in water ( in fact slighly neg when going down, very slighy pos when going up ).

You need 3 second to open it and breathe on it but Its only for deco and NOT FOR INSTANT BAILOUT.

I have a big twin in my back for bailout and dil, the main side mounted Rebreather left side, right side is free for bringing tank if its the job and have the second RB in tow especially when scootering exactly like a second scooter.

Ill show you some pics of my babies next week ( no pics actually )

Juz · 10th October 2007, 12:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland)

A granular powder can behave like a liquid

Would it still behave like a liquid if damp?

Juz

9th October 2007, 14:00	#11 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 485	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) I'm sure I've seen a thread along the same lines previously. Anyone been using their wing as a BOB? With a few hours to spare, an ABLJ that I got for a tenner off ebay, what's left of my old Ray and my spare DSV (from a Draeger FGT): My new bailout rebreather! The idea is: - no electronics, it's purely a manual SCR. Breathe in, out, in, out, in, out, dump, add new gas, go back to start or pure O2 CCR mode at 6m - no ADV, because it's running as my BCD there will always be a bit of gas in it - no real change in kit loading, it's the BCD, it's running off gas I'm carrying anyway so no extra bottles, the only extra item is the scrubber which is small I had a go on it the other day and I have to say I was impressed at how compact it felt (other than ABLJ's being shite for diving with in general). It worked as a manual SCR (I did a bit on pure O2 mode just to check it all worked), it wasn't a super-performer but it did work. The next step if it proves viable is to move on to a wing so that I'm diving on exactly the same kit as I was before except for a small scrubber plugged in the bottom of the wing. I'm also considering the addition of a single cell but on the other hand, I know my manual SCR rates. Before I waste any more money, has anyone else done it? The WOB with the chest mount was OK, I'm curious as to what it will be like with a wing. I'm curious too if I'm I'd also like to know what the max depth for a Ray scrubber would be in SCR mode. At the moment it's split as to whether I'm considering deep bailout or a way of making deco gas go further on cave dives if I needed to go OC (or where the 6m stop is pushing the KISS over its 3hrs). Cheers, Stuart Many of us have been playing with that idea of using the wing as a counterlung, in fact there is many problem to solve ( what gaz in the wing?, problems on ascent, trim and wob if using a wing ) and finally it appears that doing it that way you are putting many eggs in a single and bad basket. The only problem you solve that way is the ADV, but so you get a new buoyancy problem. IMHO thats just a thing to play with, same thing for the idea of using the drysuit as a CL. A bailout Rebreather must be very reliable and dont create to much problem, I turned my mind recently after an incident and actualy dive my BOB as a main breather till I am totaly confident and comfortable with it... Thats mean several hours dives and at least intentional dives reaching the depth of the previous first deep stops. For the Ray scruber I use it up to 40 m. Cheers Marc As for the "manual SCR" in emergency Last edited by sadave : 10th October 2007 at 00:11. Reason: Haven't I seen that pic before?
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9th October 2007, 14:01	#12 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,305	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) Define "flexible"... Exactly. A granular powder can behave like a liquid. Get the granule shape right and you've got a flexible scrubber. __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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9th October 2007, 16:01	#13 (permalink)
jaap Normal people worry me Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR RB80 / Clone Ray Other SCR Home Build Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stockholm Sweden Posts: 453	Re: Wing as a BOB? I did some related stuff using a wing of a collar style wing a a CL for a pendulum. FOTO FOTO Connecting the breathing hose to the lower dump: FOTO Or via the top dump: FOTO Anyway its important the wing is not too large so that it can float away like the wings on a bat. Did som thinking about turning it into a dual hose Rebreather-with the cannister either on the side of the backplate or behind the head. Never got time to follow up on that. __________________ My initials: JAAP
(Online)

9th October 2007, 16:07	#14 (permalink)
Crazyduck Underwater Mechanic Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: TEXAS, Dallas/ Ft.Worth Posts: 711	Re: Wing as a BOB? This was an article on a bob unit. Abyss Vampyr Link- Abyss Vampyr Credit given to Re breathers worldwide. This was from Boot 2006 No word since. Andrew __________________ Howdy Senor- What’s Happening! Rob Davie April 2005- Presently in a state of transition from Open Circuit to Closed Circuit. "You will not be punished for your anger; you will be punished by it." - Buddha. Last edited by Crazyduck : 9th October 2007 at 16:17.
(Online)

9th October 2007, 16:42	#15 (permalink)
teomannaskali Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Home Build Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Istanbul TR Posts: 385	Re: Wing as a BOB? Abyss Vampyr thats not a rebreather! That is a vaccum cleaner
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9th October 2007, 22:49	#16 (permalink)
koputai Subsea Systems Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Other CCR Other SCR Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Other CCR Other SCR Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 342	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by Woz) Of course soemone with 1/2 a brain would have the hose a large enough diameter so that you could fill it with scrubber material and then you don't need a seperate scrubber- just a hose, a CL and that's your lot. The Japs are already a step ahead of that. Check out the Eoba rebreather from the early 90's. The sorb is in the little canister behind your head, and the breathing hoses are also the counterlung. Cheers, Jason. EobaDSCN0525.jpg
(Online)

10th October 2007, 06:18	#17 (permalink)
johnv Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: UK Posts: 142	Re: Wing as a BOB? We used this idea in the Truffe earlier this year. Rick & I had one rebreather each and carried parts between us to turn a wing into a semi closed CCR. The idea being to get back one sump at a time and change the slime every sump from the main CCR's. We had suitable equipment to dry out flooded slime between sumps. The hose is too small bore to be a useful scrubber. Dave Mager made a series of small scrubbers which can be fitted in-line into the wing hoze [ on dry land ] This was a "limp home" plan, there are a lot of problems with trying to have a ready to go dual purpose wing. 1. no decent mouthpiece exists that is both an inflator and a decent rebreather mouthpiece. 2. Wings ship a load of water in normal use. 3. you ought to empty the wing of gas to begin using it as a rebreather. 4. bouyancy 5. WOB 6. Volume of slime that can be stored out of the way in the hoze vs duration If this is of interest, I can post pictures of scrubbers. In short, I found that for a real, reliable bail out breather a wing can only be used as both if you can change it's usage on the surface. (great for multi sump caves ) For this reason, I replaced the wing with an ortlieb bag and it works great. John
(Online)

10th October 2007, 09:37	#18 (permalink)
lizardland Yak Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Home Build Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: North... Posts: 1,305	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by johnv) We used this idea in the Truffe earlier this year. Rick & I had one rebreather each and carried parts between us to turn a wing into a semi closed CCR. The idea being to get back one sump at a time and change the slime every sump from the main CCR's. We had suitable equipment to dry out flooded slime between sumps. The hose is too small bore to be a useful scrubber. Dave Mager made a series of small scrubbers which can be fitted in-line into the wing hoze [ on dry land ] This was a "limp home" plan, there are a lot of problems with trying to have a ready to go dual purpose wing. 1. no decent mouthpiece exists that is both an inflator and a decent rebreather mouthpiece. 2. Wings ship a load of water in normal use. 3. you ought to empty the wing of gas to begin using it as a rebreather. 4. bouyancy 5. WOB 6. Volume of slime that can be stored out of the way in the hoze vs duration If this is of interest, I can post pictures of scrubbers. In short, I found that for a real, reliable bail out breather a wing can only be used as both if you can change it's usage on the surface. (great for multi sump caves ) For this reason, I replaced the wing with an ortlieb bag and it works great. John Getting water in was something that I was worried about, especially as the OPV on the ABLJ where the scrubber hooks up is probably the lowest point in the bag. My plan for the wing was to have a short flexible hose take off from the waist mounted scrubber and up the back of the wing, hooking in maybe 150mm or so up. This worked OK when I was using a sidemount Rebreather a couple of years ago at keeping water out the scrubber. I'd ruled out the inflator hose because of the bore anyway so went for a traditional two hose loop, one hose to the bottom left, one to the bottom right with the DSV hooked behind my head out the way. It's really only there as for use as a BCD and for manual gas addition. The Ray scrubber worked quite well because it isn't much different from a light battery in size, it could be worn on the waist belt out the way too. It wasn't really much of an increase in kit load. It's probably too small to be used for anything other than getting to your next gas source deep. Buoyancy is the big compromise though. The ABLJ is 18kg rated which is way too big for a lung and maybe a bit too small for a BCD with a flooded Rebreather. I wanted to get away from a dedicated bag though because it meant another bag to control buoyancy on or at least keep at ambient pressure (not sure what sort of pressure gradient the scrubber is designed for), I didn't want an ADV (another thing to freeflow). Any idea what the WOB of the wing was like in that position (apart from the resistance of the inflator)? Wouldn't imagine it's much different from a normal backmount. You're right, it is a limp home system. I'm in France next week so I'll probably leave it at 6m for backup O2 deco for the moment until I can find a cheap wing to butcher. Cheers, Stuart __________________ Can you imagine drifting along in the sea with your mouth open and a load of f***ing plankton going in? You'd like it, would you? www.westons-cider.co.uk Azerbaijani Association of Technical Divers Publicity Officer and Goat Wrangler
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10th October 2007, 10:04	#19 (permalink)
Marc T hell is in the details Current Rebreather/s: RB80 / Clone Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet RB80 / Clone Home Build Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: FRANCE Carcassonne Posts: 485	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) though because it meant another bag to control buoyancy on or at least keep at ambient pressure Stuart Out of topic regarding yhe actual thread of "wing as a counterlung", but on topic with what you said there, I use for a while now with constant succes and ease a side monunted Rebreather where, when not in use the breathing hoses and the O2 display are packed inside the body of the RB and so constantly collapse the counterlung. In that way this Rebreather ifitted with an ADV and exhaust valve is neutral in water ( in fact slighly neg when going down, very slighy pos when going up ). You need 3 second to open it and breathe on it but Its only for deco and NOT FOR INSTANT BAILOUT. I have a big twin in my back for bailout and dil, the main side mounted Rebreather left side, right side is free for bringing tank if its the job and have the second RB in tow especially when scootering exactly like a second scooter. Ill show you some pics of my babies next week ( no pics actually )
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10th October 2007, 12:48	#20 (permalink)
Juz Team Kinky Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: London UK Posts: 147	Re: Wing as a BOB? Quote: (Originally Posted by lizardland) A granular powder can behave like a liquid Would it still behave like a liquid if damp? Juz __________________ ~KINKY DIVERS~ Because going down is fun We are all prompted by the same motives, all deceived by the same fallacies, all animated by hope, obstructed by danger, entangled by desire and seduced by pleasure. Welcome to Kinky Divers!
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