Are all CCR manufacturers F#####

silent running

Yes Mike, I agree that we deserve better and that it's not asking too much that our CCRs not be lethal. But like the first automobiles, there's not a big demand for them, which means the margins are small and that means progress will be slow, just like the first years of the automobile. That's all I meant to say.

And I do think we are moving forward, albiet slowly. I think progess is best achieved when the focus is on refining the basic elements of a CCR, not making them more complex and all inclusive. The refinements made to the electronics, scrubber and loop design of the Prism are an improvement on the old technology in terms of size, reliability and WOB. I know of no design or equipment related Prism fatalities, so I don't think SMI are taking chances with anybody's life, I feel safe enough diving one. I can't say the same when it comes to deco theory, but I don't think that's anyone's fault.

We all kow the story about the ECCRs which would allow cals at depth. The manuf said they didn't think anybody was stupid enough to try it, which I believe is probably true. Some issues like this might have been caught by more testing. The lack of testing is a problem, a big problem, mostly a money problem, which most manufs don't have very much of. But I think the first and biggest problem we all have is the lousy O2 sensor technology and lack of CO2 sensors. But this is not news to anybody...

zoo_diver

Leon runs a great group of folks down there at ISC and IMHO, sets the standard by which all other manufactuers SHOULD be modeling their service.

I was up at the PNWTDC yesterday and got the hear him talk about manufactuers and agencies in today's arena - its problems and things he would like to see the industry focus on for tomorrow. From an end-users perspective, it is comforting to know that I am flying a unit that is backed by an amazing customer support system.

Drmike

Im not talking about spending a lot of money on advanced testing - Im talking about just diving the things for a while! If you look at many of the commonly reported faults they are glaringly obvious. They are faults (such as software bugs, failing components etc) that will show up with the min of testing. Theres no excuse for shipping product with flaws that the customer can discover in a few days of diving! If the customer can discover the fault in a few days (or less) of diving then the mnf should be able to see it straight away with the min of testing and min financial outlay - no?



See above. I'm calling for basic functionality and quality testing control - not expensive/complicated advanced testing nor am I calling for increased complexity.

The layout behind the PRISM electronics is 20 years+ old (copy of MK15 functionality/prototyped/used in 15.5/SM1600 then in prism). Loop design is also nothing new, couple of OTS CLS - scrubber...Nothing new or advanced there. Reliability? have you dropped yours yet

Sorry I didn't want to make this unit specific as my point is most units are guilty of the same things - none are fault free.

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Wreck diving is a sport
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its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment

PCDiver

I completely agree Mike.
For example, let's have a look at the problems I had with the metal HH handsets. I don't want to have a go at JM but I still fail to see how these problems didn't show up in testing.

1. Primary continuously injecting O2 during reboot under water. This happened on the second dive since I didn't realise that battery life was extremely short.
2. Handsets corroding badly after two or three dives in salt water.
3. Depth sensor not going to 0 at the surface. After a couple of dives.
4. Wet switches corroding preventing the system from switching off.
5. Hud flooded. After 20 or so dives.
6. HH floods on the first dive after it returns from the factory after the upgrade to fix the corrosion issues.

Would these faults have showed up during extensive testing? They should if the handsets were tested in salt water.

Did I feel like a beta tester? No, more like an alpha tester.

What did I get for the privilege of being a tester? Let's see:

• Lots of missed dives, one 14 day dive trip where I was forced to dive OC because of the HH problems.
• My HH sitting at JM for extended times what forced me to buy different electronics.
• Having to pay a new hud from JM because they don't cover floods. (even when they changed the design because of too many problems)
• Selling the HH at a significant loss (over 1000€) because I couldn't handle the support issues anymore.

I upgraded my Classic to a Vision. This one has been back to APD 3 times. But there are a couple of major differences. The problems did not prevent me from diving. The problems were not obvious either. I had some battery issues (Panasonic batteries) and a software glitch when the low setpoint is set to a non standard value. The turnaround time was usually 6 to 8 days.
Beta tester? Nope, these problems are only found when you have a large user base doing lots of diving.

If I were to pick a new unit, I would look for a product with a large user base and good local support. I'm beta testing enough products for a living, I don't need it when I'm diving. Unless I specificaly ask for it.

Peter

quickean

I certainly cannot complain about ISC. Love 'em!

Dave Sutton

100% of your post is dead on.

The reason is very simple: Underfunded. It's a combination of finances and race-to-market that drives this. As you say, though, testing could *start* by actually diving the stuff... in salt water.

And people wonder why I homebuild....


Dave

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"Changes in Lattitudes, Changes in Attitudes, Nothing remains quite the same".... www.nobubblediving.com

heyydude

You know what, Peter - this is just rude.

I just went over all the e-mails between you, Doug and myself, and we busted our butts to take care of you. You were getting responses from us nearly every day.

Your last e-mail to us was November of last year - so, presumably, in the last 11 months, your AP system has been back to them 3 times?? And they are great, and we suck??

Posts like yours just frost me. It doesn't matter what you do to try and fix a problem, or make the customer happy - they buy a new piece of gear, that they've never dove, take it on "the trip of a lifetime" - stick a NEEDLE into a hole over the pressure transducer, then when you do whatever you can to make it right, sell their system to someone else (who is using it, I guess, since it isn't here), and then once they no longer need you (because they are with another Mfgr.) go online to a public forum and talk smack.

I feel sorry for Martin, since he will no doubt be your next target when you switch to yet another manufacturer's stuff.

I spend TONS of money on R&D - we went through SEVEN versions of the Aluminum wrist unit - and tested and tested and tested them in Salt Water - they did just fine, and looked beautiful after weeks of soaking with DC current running through the tank.

Unfortunately, the supplier of the units just vaporized - gone - prior to production, so we hired a very expensive engineering firm to port the process to another firm located in Utah - THEY screwed up, and whammo - we had some issues with corrosion.

Did it take us by surprise? Yes.

Did we spend $$,$$$ to fix it? Yes.

Did we try to keep you and others happy? Yes.


Forum "discussions" like this particular one are fundamentally unfair. I KNOW nearly all the guys in this business, and NOT ONE of them thinks the cutting corners is o.k.

We all spend money trying to improve our products, to make them better, safer, easier to use. We all test stuff in-house, then have our favorite "beta" testers get in the water with them, sometimes for MONTHS before we release.

Lamar Hires himself just test-dove a unit for a customer who was uneasy with it's function because the LCD had a loose connection - he beat it and beat it and it did not fail - yet, when the customer called me still uneasy, I agreed on the spot to rebuild the unit for him - but Lamar had beat me to it, giving him a brand new one instead. Who the hell does THAT??



Look: The simple fact that seems to escape many is that this is a business where you are successful if you sell 100-200 of your product. We're NOT talking cars, we're not talking aeroplanes. We are not talking about Military Equipment (where the 100 unit price is around $70,000 each).

The second fact that escapes nearly everyone with an ax to grind is that the multi-million dollar tested stuff fails ALL THE TIME. How much money did they spend to make the foam not come off the Space Shuttle?? How many tests did they do? How many brilliant engineers worked on that one??

Don't tell me that Military stuff doesn't fail either. Mark 16's need work CONSTANTLY. The electronics fail, the cables fail, etc, etc, etc. You guys just don't know about it because these things are not discussed generally.


One of the unfortunate things about the Internet is that anyone can say anything they want, and their words carry weight beyond it's value or (dare I say it?) truth. Damaging reputations is almost a spectator sport on the internet because that natural filter that goes between your brain and your mouth seems absent when it comes to the fingers and the keyboard.


All I know is that we continue to try and improve our product, we continue to care personally about our customers, and our business keeps growing and growing.

Either I'm the luckiest bastard in the world, or I'm doing something right.


Kevin Juergensen
Juergensen Marine, Inc.

PCDiver

I've been diving my Vision a lot longer. I had to buy something else because my HH spent too much time in transit with DHL and waiting for repairs in your factory.

Your support on the phone and via email was good in the beginning but dropped quickly when my unit kept on having problems.

In the end you forced me to buy a new diva "because you don't cover floods". It was still under waranty! Is that what you call good service? The only reason I wanted the DIVA fixed was because I wanted to sell a properly working unit.

So you changed a major component without testing and then you are suprised that something was wrong with the final product? And now you are complaining about negative publicity in a forum.

Kevin, all that I stated was absolutely correct, and you know it. I can back it all up with our emails.

JS1scuba

I'm not in the CCR manufaturing business. Though I have come close. Today being Sept 11 marks the most significant time in my lifetime that the world changed. On Sept 11 2001 I was in my office in Boulder Colorado at the now defunct Abysmal Diving Inc. and got the frantic call from my pregnant wife in Connecticut. "they blew up the trade center" My father an english professor should have been in class that day 3 blocks away and we could not find him. (he took the day off) An ex girlfriend who worked in the Merchantile Exchange was no where to be found for weeks till we found that she was on a ship with her husband. John Chatterton lost all his commercial dive gear and we were pinging him with offers to ship him whatever he needed to keep working. And many many more friends were missing and nowhere to be found. Our world changed at least it did for us Yanks.

Meanwhile the previous 12 months had been filled with the dreaded Abyss Explorer computer that had more failures in manufacturing than I had ever imagined I could see. I was not involved in the design or production of it. That was Gene and Chris. But when we would get in 50 units and 50 would fail in basic QC suffice to say I was a bit cranky. All in all close to 2700 units had problems. It's poor production and manufacturing from the OEM was probably the single biggest cause of poor customer relations at Abyss while i was there. And it was probably a major cause of that companies demise.

Over the previous 4 mos that year I was heavily involved with a Swiss company about to buy the complete set up for a new mass production rebreather. This thing was modular, mostly all injection molded. Could switch from OC to SCR to CCR with the turn of a dial. All the lab testing had been done etc. It rocked. The cost to buy the plans, test data, electronics, designs, patents etc was about $600k USD. The cost to set up and do all the molds, fabrication plant, packaging, training, advertising, marketing, customer support etc was a cool $6million. This thing would come out of the box to the consumer at $2500 USD complete. It would have changed how we do rebreathers for the masses. The deal was in place. The investors ready to wire the money. I had 4 months tied up in this (really many years) and along came a cupla guys who needed to kill a whole lot of people and change how we do things here forever. It would have taken us a year to get it to market (2003ish) and we would have had the first mass production fully supported rebreather on a world wide basis. However, after the dust settled and the telephones in NY were working again and Wall Street was back up and running and the missing friends were found we tried to finish the deal but all the venture capitalists had shut down. That deal was now over and never gonna happen. The money risk was too great at that time.

For the past 7 years I have had my hand on the creation, development, manufacturing and distirbution of hundreds of products for the diving world. Most test out just fine. Some have problems. We try to fix them long before they get to the street but sometimes users can do things with a product that we cannot. The goal for all the manufacturers is to put out high quality products that will work for you without problem. But keep in mind that they (we) are all small guys in a small market without a lot of staff or money to test and test and test and test. If one wants diving equipment that will not have a glitch here and there you must stick with basic scuba. That is pretty much fool proof.

But, if you want cutting edge technology for a limited market place you MUST accept that you will have some problems along the way. And while this may sound snobbish. If you cant take the problems that may occur like a big boy you should probably not be doing this kind of diving. What we do underwater is a priviledge it's not a right.

All the guys making this stuff are standup guys, they work hard to get you what you want when you want it with the best possible customer service they can. I know all about it -- i am on the recieving end of some of the irrate calls now and then. Our goal is to make you happy. Just dont beat up on us.

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I've ranted .....


Cheers

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Joel Silverstein, VP COO
Tech Diving Limited a Division of Scuba Training and Technology Inc.

http://www.nautilusdiveplanner.com
http://www.nobubblediving.com

PCDiver

It depends on the problem. If the problem(s) is (are) soo big that it a. prevents me from diving or b. tries to kill me underwater, I have all the right to complain.

Such deficencies in a product tell more about the people who produced it than the people who dive it.

So we should feel priviledged because we are allowed to buy rebreathers??? Get real.