CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment

medictom · 5th September 2007, 08:13

This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team??

Let the fight's begin!!

Gilles · 5th September 2007, 08:28

Quote: (Originally Posted by medictom)

This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team??

Let the fight's begin!!

I doubt you'll open a can of worms here (I doubt us Rebreather'rs are very objective).

Of course CCR's (utilized by trained and experienced pro's) should be part of PSD. What else can be better?

It's a little bit like asking us Meggies which is the best Rebreather.

York · 5th September 2007, 09:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by medictom)

This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team??

Let the fight's begin!!

medictom,
I was a founding member of the FSU UCSI program- at a time when it still had a good reputation (my personal opinion). You may or may not have heard about the program at the time. The point being that I witnessed the struggle you describe. It is actually bigger than that: the american academy of underwater scientists appears to propose demanding CE-approval (or similar, whatever that means) for use of any rebreather in their projects- which is ironic, as the tanks and valves are part of the rig to fulfill CE standards, which means technically speaking even the Inspiration and Euroboros are not CE-approved when used with DOT tanks (best of my knowledge).

I think what we witness in the communities is a paradigm shift, and the usual resistance. This is good and bad. You or any private organisation made up of volunteers (such as the self-proclaimed group of cave-exploration experts) doesn't need to give a second thought about liability (as each member assumes it for themselves), whereas any government or official group has to rely on "proven" standards and established technology. Allowing you to use your somewhat untested rebreather means they automatically assume liability and responsibility. Put yourself in the administrators' shoes: they allow you to use a life support device that they have no record or proof of functionality, record of maintenance, potentially not even a record of your training, and a technology that is generally considered "new". Something happens and they have to argue in front of a judge why they allowed you to injure yourself? Ain't gonna happen.

On the other hand, the paradigm can only shift if it is for people like you pushing it. I personally would have also rather dived a rebreather on deeper dives than OC or SSA (which is more of a pain than help, again personal opinion - to my general amazement it was considered safe to dive OC air to 60m/200 feet, but not trimix or even CCR trimix). Having said that: Where would you persoanlly draw the line? There are some rebreathers out there that scare the living daylight out of me, yet a lot of people here on this forum keep reiterating how great they are.

I understand and share your frustration. I believe this is an issue that needs to be tackled at a political level. Your Co is going the safe route, and that is understandeable. Have you guys even introduced nitrox to the team yet?

Don't have an answer for you

Joerg

mverick · 5th September 2007, 19:19

I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years.

In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line.

We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them .

In those enviroments. No way.

There are places I could see it. Just not ours.

Super17 is the sweet set up for the river.

zoo_diver · 5th September 2007, 20:16

Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick)

I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years.

In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line.

We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them .

In those enviroments. No way.

There are places I could see it. Just not ours.

Super17 is the sweet set up for the river.

I totally disagree --

If I was in a place where I knew there was going to be stuff that I could potentially get tangled in, I would want to maximize my underwater potential -- not "gamble" with 80cft (not that you might not dive with more).

If you were trying to recover something (heaven forbid someone) I would look for a CCR long before OC. If you are in a lake looking for a knife, think about the logistics if you were on OC. You are basically looking for a needle in a haystack. Wouldnt you want to be able to be in the water as long as possible "searching" for the knife and not have to worry about how much air is left in your tank?

Heck, if its dark and you have trouble seeing your gauges, I'd rather know I have time than worry about running out of gas -- just MHO.

**fireman** · 5th September 2007, 21:03

A couple of things, I believe we are limited by Osha to 20 min bottom time. Frequently in polluted water--so a ffm with pos presure. Mostly shallow here--usually tethered and always on coms. Usually after 20 minutes or so your wad is shot. Doing search patterns in bad vis about maxes out my task loading as it is.
One mans opinion.

Joe Botz · 5th September 2007, 22:31

Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick)

I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years.

In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line.

We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them .

In those enviroments. No way.

There are places I could see it. Just not ours.

Super17 is the sweet set up for the river.

Pure o2 in the shallows....low psi alarm

OceanOpportunity · 5th September 2007, 22:57

Practically speaking, of course any situation where a CCR would be of benefit would warrant its use, HOWEVER, this is an issue with standards and liability...so your CO did right by raising a flag, and it is a BIG one... in a 'working' situation, be it public safety, scientific, or commercial diving; the standards have yet to readily accomodate CCRs in the vast majority of situations where in fact they would be most useful. heck, it's still like pulling teeth to use nitrox for commercial diving! So, the real problem is that standards set in stone by governmental org's are slow to change, very slow, and until they do (if at all), any violation of them jeopardizes the home institution that the dives are made under.

mverick · 6th September 2007, 00:21

Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver)

I totally disagree --

If I was in a place where I knew there was going to be stuff that I could potentially get tangled in, I would want to maximize my underwater potential -- not "gamble" with 80cft (not that you might not dive with more).

If you were trying to recover something (heaven forbid someone) I would look for a CCR long before OC. If you are in a lake looking for a knife, think about the logistics if you were on OC. You are basically looking for a needle in a haystack. Wouldnt you want to be able to be in the water as long as possible "searching" for the knife and not have to worry about how much air is left in your tank?

Heck, if its dark and you have trouble seeing your gauges, I'd rather know I have time than worry about running out of gas -- just MHO.

A 108cf lasts a lot longer then I can when I run search patterns in ponds.

That's what our surface supply is there for. You'll run out of air on your rebreather way before I run out of air surface supplied. Cascade on the end plus a compressor.

I also have 2 divers at the ready in case I get in trouble to get me out.

And there isn't trouble seeing the gauges. You can't see them period. One of those, you need to be in our situations to know what you're talking about. A silt out isn't blackwater.

Yep, we recover the someone's all the time. CCR in shallow water is not what I want or recommend. Deep water is it's mistress.

Ain't my first rodeo.

Have you ever done recovery work? On a regular basis? Until you do, you just can't imagine the stuff. Rebar that can trap you, I dive when there are ice sheets on the river. Old line from barges when working around the loading docks. Concrete chunks that are dumped there that have drops you can't see of 15ft. Like falling off the edge of the world cause you can't see anything. Even with a 50w hid. Deepest we might hit is 50ft. But high current. A lot of the times we wear 60lbs of lead. If it's really kicking we wear 100lbs. So going off the boat we hit the bottom instead of 250ft out of line and 10ft deep because of the current.

Now if I was doing deep recovery. That would be a different story. Mount the Hud IN the mask and run a display into a KM17. But, we don't have any use for that here...

Some of the recovery stuff is VERY Area Specific. Our team was doing this before they had training for it. We've had agencies try to get us to take there classes for certifications and when we explain what we do. They just laugh and say they don't offer that.. LOL

Oh, we..... Aren't limited by OSHA. We've had guy's asleep underwater in KM's while we decided the next place to put him. He was under around 3 hours.. Very shallow though....

jdicediver · 8th September 2007, 16:18

Quote: (Originally Posted by York)

medictom,
I believe this is an issue that needs to be tackled at a political level. Your Co is going the safe route, and that is understandeable.

Joerg

Under the constraints of any PSD program I am aware of (at least here in Canada) there are certain requirements that must be met.

In order to even be remotely considered for use by the RCMP on a recovery mission, the requirements identified in CSA Standard Z275.4, "Competency Standard for Diving Operations" must strictly be adhered to.

Additional respected standard operating procedures as specified by Dive Rescue International whose Instructors have trained the majority of all PSD's in North America are available at:

Sample SOP/SOG

Actually, it is really amazing to think that the use of a CCR on an authorized recovery mission actually was even allowed to take place...LIABILITY ABOUNDS.

They do however, have a place in training drills, and since the recent acquisition of an ultrasonic towfish, we will be using a CCR for the implementation of scenario training.

The obvious benefits of using CCR being there are no telltale bubbles giving the location of the "victim" away prematurely, and no sonar image distortion due to bubble interference.

5th September 2007, 08:13	#1 (permalink)
medictom New Member Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Prism Topaz Sport Kiss Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: CANADA Posts: 9	CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team?? Let the fight's begin!! __________________ Sharing your knowledge with others is better than winning the Lottery!! Dive safe and Have Fun!! By this I don't mean NARCED!!! PUBLIC SAFETY DIVERS ROCK!!!
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5th September 2007, 08:28	#2 (permalink)
Gilles Worship the feminine Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Den Haag (Netherlands) Posts: 761	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by medictom) This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team?? Let the fight's begin!! I doubt you'll open a can of worms here (I doubt us Rebreather'rs are very objective). Of course CCR's (utilized by trained and experienced pro's) should be part of PSD. What else can be better? It's a little bit like asking us Meggies which is the best Rebreather. __________________ Gilles http://www.dirrebreather.com
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5th September 2007, 09:19	#3 (permalink)
York probubbly not Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bristol, UK Posts: 118	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by medictom) This is going to open a can of worms I KNOW but I thought I'd ask our members.I'm on a PSD team in Canada and I'm trained to use my Megalodon.I'm the training officer so usually what I say is okay, BUT on a past DEEP recovery mission I used my CCR to extend bottom time. My CO chewed me out saying PSD's are only supposed to use OC or SSA. What do you all think??? Do CCR's or SCR's have a place on a PSD team?? Let the fight's begin!! medictom, I was a founding member of the FSU UCSI program- at a time when it still had a good reputation (my personal opinion). You may or may not have heard about the program at the time. The point being that I witnessed the struggle you describe. It is actually bigger than that: the american academy of underwater scientists appears to propose demanding CE-approval (or similar, whatever that means) for use of any rebreather in their projects- which is ironic, as the tanks and valves are part of the rig to fulfill CE standards, which means technically speaking even the Inspiration and Euroboros are not CE-approved when used with DOT tanks (best of my knowledge). I think what we witness in the communities is a paradigm shift, and the usual resistance. This is good and bad. You or any private organisation made up of volunteers (such as the self-proclaimed group of cave-exploration experts) doesn't need to give a second thought about liability (as each member assumes it for themselves), whereas any government or official group has to rely on "proven" standards and established technology. Allowing you to use your somewhat untested rebreather means they automatically assume liability and responsibility. Put yourself in the administrators' shoes: they allow you to use a life support device that they have no record or proof of functionality, record of maintenance, potentially not even a record of your training, and a technology that is generally considered "new". Something happens and they have to argue in front of a judge why they allowed you to injure yourself? Ain't gonna happen. On the other hand, the paradigm can only shift if it is for people like you pushing it. I personally would have also rather dived a rebreather on deeper dives than OC or SSA (which is more of a pain than help, again personal opinion - to my general amazement it was considered safe to dive OC air to 60m/200 feet, but not trimix or even CCR trimix). Having said that: Where would you persoanlly draw the line? There are some rebreathers out there that scare the living daylight out of me, yet a lot of people here on this forum keep reiterating how great they are. I understand and share your frustration. I believe this is an issue that needs to be tackled at a political level. Your Co is going the safe route, and that is understandeable. Have you guys even introduced nitrox to the team yet? Don't have an answer for you Joerg
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5th September 2007, 19:19	#4 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 495	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years. In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line. We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them . In those enviroments. No way. There are places I could see it. Just not ours. Super17 is the sweet set up for the river.
(Online)

5th September 2007, 20:16	#5 (permalink)
zoo_diver Is it snack time yet? Current Rebreather/s: Evolution Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Megalodon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Suffolk, VA Posts: 248	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick) I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years. In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line. We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them . In those enviroments. No way. There are places I could see it. Just not ours. Super17 is the sweet set up for the river. I totally disagree -- If I was in a place where I knew there was going to be stuff that I could potentially get tangled in, I would want to maximize my underwater potential -- not "gamble" with 80cft (not that you might not dive with more). If you were trying to recover something (heaven forbid someone) I would look for a CCR long before OC. If you are in a lake looking for a knife, think about the logistics if you were on OC. You are basically looking for a needle in a haystack. Wouldnt you want to be able to be in the water as long as possible "searching" for the knife and not have to worry about how much air is left in your tank? Heck, if its dark and you have trouble seeing your gauges, I'd rather know I have time than worry about running out of gas -- just MHO.
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5th September 2007, 21:03	#6 (permalink)
fireman rEvo combat swimmer Current Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: chicago Posts: 444	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment A couple of things, I believe we are limited by Osha to 20 min bottom time. Frequently in polluted water--so a ffm with pos presure. Mostly shallow here--usually tethered and always on coms. Usually after 20 minutes or so your wad is shot. Doing search patterns in bad vis about maxes out my task loading as it is. One mans opinion. __________________ Heres to you Capt. Bill Never Forget, and stay safe everyone.
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5th September 2007, 22:31	#7 (permalink)
Joe Botz New Member Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: USA, NY Posts: 38	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by mverick) I'm involved with a Rescue/Recovery dive team and have been for a number of years. In our enviroment, no way. We dive in ponds looking for everything from knives to guns to cars to bodies. Ponds have a lot of silt and a lot of fishing line. We also dive the Mississippi River. Zero vis. Blackwater. You couldn't see your HUD or your display even with a light on them . In those enviroments. No way. There are places I could see it. Just not ours. Super17 is the sweet set up for the river. Pure o2 in the shallows....low psi alarm
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5th September 2007, 22:57	#8 (permalink)
OceanOpportunity for a world of water Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Inspiration Classic Other CCR Dolphin Home Build Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Providence, RI USA Posts: 481	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Practically speaking, of course any situation where a CCR would be of benefit would warrant its use, HOWEVER, this is an issue with standards and liability...so your CO did right by raising a flag, and it is a BIG one... in a 'working' situation, be it public safety, scientific, or commercial diving; the standards have yet to readily accomodate CCRs in the vast majority of situations where in fact they would be most useful. heck, it's still like pulling teeth to use nitrox for commercial diving! So, the real problem is that standards set in stone by governmental org's are slow to change, very slow, and until they do (if at all), any violation of them jeopardizes the home institution that the dives are made under. __________________ Michael Lombardi Oceans of Opportunity www.oceanopportunity.com Elected Director, Society for Human Performance in Extreme Environments MN'07, The Explorers Club Project Manager, Diving a Dream
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6th September 2007, 00:21	#9 (permalink)
mverick ScubaPimp Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 495	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by zoo_diver) I totally disagree -- If I was in a place where I knew there was going to be stuff that I could potentially get tangled in, I would want to maximize my underwater potential -- not "gamble" with 80cft (not that you might not dive with more). If you were trying to recover something (heaven forbid someone) I would look for a CCR long before OC. If you are in a lake looking for a knife, think about the logistics if you were on OC. You are basically looking for a needle in a haystack. Wouldnt you want to be able to be in the water as long as possible "searching" for the knife and not have to worry about how much air is left in your tank? Heck, if its dark and you have trouble seeing your gauges, I'd rather know I have time than worry about running out of gas -- just MHO. A 108cf lasts a lot longer then I can when I run search patterns in ponds. That's what our surface supply is there for. You'll run out of air on your rebreather way before I run out of air surface supplied. Cascade on the end plus a compressor. I also have 2 divers at the ready in case I get in trouble to get me out. And there isn't trouble seeing the gauges. You can't see them period. One of those, you need to be in our situations to know what you're talking about. A silt out isn't blackwater. Yep, we recover the someone's all the time. CCR in shallow water is not what I want or recommend. Deep water is it's mistress. Ain't my first rodeo. Have you ever done recovery work? On a regular basis? Until you do, you just can't imagine the stuff. Rebar that can trap you, I dive when there are ice sheets on the river. Old line from barges when working around the loading docks. Concrete chunks that are dumped there that have drops you can't see of 15ft. Like falling off the edge of the world cause you can't see anything. Even with a 50w hid. Deepest we might hit is 50ft. But high current. A lot of the times we wear 60lbs of lead. If it's really kicking we wear 100lbs. So going off the boat we hit the bottom instead of 250ft out of line and 10ft deep because of the current. Now if I was doing deep recovery. That would be a different story. Mount the Hud IN the mask and run a display into a KM17. But, we don't have any use for that here... Some of the recovery stuff is VERY Area Specific. Our team was doing this before they had training for it. We've had agencies try to get us to take there classes for certifications and when we explain what we do. They just laugh and say they don't offer that.. LOL Oh, we..... Aren't limited by OSHA. We've had guy's asleep underwater in KM's while we decided the next place to put him. He was under around 3 hours.. Very shallow though.... Last edited by mverick : 6th September 2007 at 00:23.
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8th September 2007, 16:18	#10 (permalink)
jdicediver Single/burdened with cash Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts: 253	Re: CCR's in a Public Safety Diving environment Quote: (Originally Posted by York) medictom, I believe this is an issue that needs to be tackled at a political level. Your Co is going the safe route, and that is understandeable. Joerg Under the constraints of any PSD program I am aware of (at least here in Canada) there are certain requirements that must be met. In order to even be remotely considered for use by the RCMP on a recovery mission, the requirements identified in CSA Standard Z275.4, "Competency Standard for Diving Operations" must strictly be adhered to. Additional respected standard operating procedures as specified by Dive Rescue International whose Instructors have trained the majority of all PSD's in North America are available at: Sample SOP/SOG Actually, it is really amazing to think that the use of a CCR on an authorized recovery mission actually was even allowed to take place...LIABILITY ABOUNDS. They do however, have a place in training drills, and since the recent acquisition of an ultrasonic towfish, we will be using a CCR for the implementation of scenario training. The obvious benefits of using CCR being there are no telltale bubbles giving the location of the "victim" away prematurely, and no sonar image distortion due to bubble interference. __________________ Regards; "Alterations performed under controlled conditions, on a closed course by a qualified Closed Circuit Diver" "Some people shouldn't dive...others shouldn't even get wet".
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