Standard Bailout Mixes

tecdivertraining · 5th September 2007, 03:17

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training.

I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors.

There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views.

I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive.

It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration.

I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments.

I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs.

Dive Safe

kieranu · 5th September 2007, 04:01

Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running)

Hi Steve, I'm pretty sure NAUI recomend standard mixes, can't remember exactly which ones, I'll have to check my course materials when I get home. They advocate team BO strategies and an absolute minimum of gas switching, so I think that's probably part of the reason for standardization and a pretty good argument for it, at least the minimum gas switching idea. Much of the tmix course was written by a retired Navy diver, so that might also have something to do with it being standardized and team oriented.

I guess another factor would be whether or not SCR is part of your BO plan. If it is, then you'd want as hot a mix as you dare at depth to keep your emergency deco to a minimum. Being a new tmix diver, I'm still tryting to sort out the easiest, most flexible way for me to plan, so this is a good topic to have discussed.

Do any agencies teach SCR as a first option in a BO short of total loop flood?

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training.

I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors.

There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views.

I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive.

It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration.

I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments.

I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs.

Dive Safe

I agree that a little information can be a dangerous thing and in promoting safety in diving, but if people are going to be idiots and dive without the proper training then thats their idiocy and no-one else can be held accountable. There are people out there diving CCR without any formal CCR training whatsoever - some prominent divers have no training on their particular units or dive homebuilds - should they need to show proof of certification before they can see any of the posts related to CCR diving or the particular unit they are certified to dive. As I've admitted I'm a trimix virgin, CC or OC, and there's no way jose I'd dive trimix without the proper training and I'm not about to second-guess an instructor with years of experience. At the same time I'm also interested in augmenting that knowledge with the experience of other trimix divers (instructors or not). Then again my IQ is over 100 and I don't have a death wish. I'd hate to think that we'd come to a place where I have to show my certification card to get a special registration key that would unlock the trimix calculations available in planning software such as V-Planner.

tecdivertraining · 5th September 2007, 04:36

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

There are people out there diving CCR without any formal CCR training whatsoever - some prominent divers have no training on their particular units or dive homebuilds - should they need to show proof of certification before they can see any of the posts related to CCR diving or the particular unit they are certified to dive. .

I am aware that there are divers diving home builds/ rebreathers with know certifications and some of them have also died over the years. The majority of these guys are quite knowledgeable about rebreathers. My concen is not this group but the novice and easily influenced new CCR divers out rapidly growing.

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

As I've admitted I'm a trimix virgin, CC or OC, and there's no way jose I'd dive trimix without the proper training and I'm not about to second-guess an instructor with years of experience. .

I’m glad to here that

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

I'd hate to think that we'd come to a place where I have to show my certification card to get a special registration key that would unlock the trimix calculations available in planning software such as V-Planner.

I disagree V-planner should have a lock out that requires a divers information to be submitted, theirs a lot of guys using it without a full understanding.

I appreciate your opinions but that doesn’t change the fact that sometime commercial gain overshadows people welfare.

By the way you should see the pictures on the cigarette packets here in Asia and millions still buy them, smoke them and die from them and I believe they should be banned. Its all a conspiracy.

Drmike · 5th September 2007, 04:59

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Its all a conspiracy.

Genesis!

calling Genesis!

***ScubaDadMiami*** · 5th September 2007, 05:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Genesis!

calling Genesis!

Have some green.

***jradomski*** · 5th September 2007, 05:35

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Hi Guys

I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training.

I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors.

There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views.

I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive.

It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration.

I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments.

I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs.

Dive Safe

Hopefully a thread like this shows divers that there is alot more to taking additional training than doing a few dives.. A thread like this points out SOME of the deficiencies in knowledge the average diver has, its by all means not encompassing and anyone reading this without the training should realize its just the tip of the iceberg.. But also there are people that have been "trained" and were never given all the tools necessary and a thread like this may save their ass..

I have has enough PMs from both trained and untrained diver to know this thread has been definately worthwhile.. If it makes a diver take a second look and question their bailout strategies, then all the better..

tecdivertraining · 5th September 2007, 05:42

Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski)

Hopefully a thread like this shows divers that there is alot more to taking additional training than doing a few dives.. A thread like this points out SOME of the deficiencies in knowledge the average diver has, its by all means not encompassing and anyone reading this without the training should realize its just the tip of the iceberg.. But also there are people that have been "trained" and were never given all the tools necessary and a thread like this may save their ass..

I have has enough PMs from both trained and untrained diver to know this thread has been definately worthwhile.. If it makes a diver take a second look and question their bailout strategies, then all the better..

Hi Joe

I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather.

I respect your opinions as a very experienced IT on many CCR and would welcome you ideas and review prior to my article being posted.

Pm me if that of interest

decoweenie · 5th September 2007, 05:54

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

Genesis!

calling Genesis!

I think he is busy taking notes...

kieranu · 5th September 2007, 05:58

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather.

I respect your opinions as a very experienced IT on many CCR and would welcome you ideas and review prior to my article being posted.

Pm me if that of interest

Sounds like a brilliant idea - I think that one thing this thread has raised is different schools of thought etc and questions that one might raise with an instructor when doing a mixed gas course. I plan to do mine early next year so ...

UKSteve · 5th September 2007, 06:06

Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining)

Hi Joe

I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather.

Er.. isn't that otherwise called the Course syllabus that should be provided by the training agency???

Ok.. that was a joke before someone gets their knickers in a twist!!

Although I have done Mod 1/2/3 there are still many things I am picking up from RBW.. not all taken as gospel; I have a very finely tuned bullsh*t detector from too many years on drilling rigs

but it never hurts to look at things from a different angle - even if you then choose to discount it.

A good example of something I had never heard before is the O2 effect on the middle ear from CCR diving. Maybe I was asleep when that was mentioned in my Mod 1 course but once again RBW has filled in some knowledge.

For what its worth I totally dissagree with the idea of locking out some areas of discussion or restricting technical content. Legislation will never prevent Darwinian evolution!!

Steve

5th September 2007, 03:17	#81 (permalink)
tecdivertraining EXPLORER Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 550	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Hi Guys I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training. I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors. There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views. I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive. It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration. I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments. I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs. Dive Safe __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 04:01	#82 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by silent running) Hi Steve, I'm pretty sure NAUI recomend standard mixes, can't remember exactly which ones, I'll have to check my course materials when I get home. They advocate team BO strategies and an absolute minimum of gas switching, so I think that's probably part of the reason for standardization and a pretty good argument for it, at least the minimum gas switching idea. Much of the tmix course was written by a retired Navy diver, so that might also have something to do with it being standardized and team oriented. I guess another factor would be whether or not SCR is part of your BO plan. If it is, then you'd want as hot a mix as you dare at depth to keep your emergency deco to a minimum. Being a new tmix diver, I'm still tryting to sort out the easiest, most flexible way for me to plan, so this is a good topic to have discussed. Do any agencies teach SCR as a first option in a BO short of total loop flood? Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Hi Guys I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training. I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors. There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views. I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive. It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration. I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments. I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs. Dive Safe I agree that a little information can be a dangerous thing and in promoting safety in diving, but if people are going to be idiots and dive without the proper training then thats their idiocy and no-one else can be held accountable. There are people out there diving CCR without any formal CCR training whatsoever - some prominent divers have no training on their particular units or dive homebuilds - should they need to show proof of certification before they can see any of the posts related to CCR diving or the particular unit they are certified to dive. As I've admitted I'm a trimix virgin, CC or OC, and there's no way jose I'd dive trimix without the proper training and I'm not about to second-guess an instructor with years of experience. At the same time I'm also interested in augmenting that knowledge with the experience of other trimix divers (instructors or not). Then again my IQ is over 100 and I don't have a death wish. I'd hate to think that we'd come to a place where I have to show my certification card to get a special registration key that would unlock the trimix calculations available in planning software such as V-Planner.
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 04:36	#83 (permalink)
tecdivertraining EXPLORER Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 550	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) There are people out there diving CCR without any formal CCR training whatsoever - some prominent divers have no training on their particular units or dive homebuilds - should they need to show proof of certification before they can see any of the posts related to CCR diving or the particular unit they are certified to dive. . I am aware that there are divers diving home builds/ rebreathers with know certifications and some of them have also died over the years. The majority of these guys are quite knowledgeable about rebreathers. My concen is not this group but the novice and easily influenced new CCR divers out rapidly growing. Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) As I've admitted I'm a trimix virgin, CC or OC, and there's no way jose I'd dive trimix without the proper training and I'm not about to second-guess an instructor with years of experience. . I’m glad to here that Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) I'd hate to think that we'd come to a place where I have to show my certification card to get a special registration key that would unlock the trimix calculations available in planning software such as V-Planner. I disagree V-planner should have a lock out that requires a divers information to be submitted, theirs a lot of guys using it without a full understanding. I appreciate your opinions but that doesn’t change the fact that sometime commercial gain overshadows people welfare. By the way you should see the pictures on the cigarette packets here in Asia and millions still buy them, smoke them and die from them and I believe they should be banned. Its all a conspiracy. __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 04:59	#84 (permalink)
Drmike RBW Member Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,379	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Its all a conspiracy. Genesis! calling Genesis! __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 05:13	#85 (permalink)
*ScubaDadMiami* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Optima Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 2,286	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Genesis! calling Genesis! Have some green. __________________ Howard Packer IANTD CCR Instructor Miami Beach, Florida CCRDiveTraining.com
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 05:35	#86 (permalink)
*jradomski* Moderator Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Sport Kiss Optima rEvo Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Classic Kiss rEvo Other CCR Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: "Da" Bronx Posts: 3,133	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Hi Guys I have been watching this thread over the last few days and support some of the theory’s mentioned in various posts. Having said that I am concerned when I read things that provide quite specific information on deep trimix diving with a rebreather to those trying to work it out without the required amount of experience or training. I fully support rebreatherworld as an excellent educational tool but once again find myself questioning some of the advanced diving theory presented by experienced training Directors and Instructors. There are many individuals who do not posses the required experience to dive deep on a rebreather and need a lot more exposure and practice before engaging in deep ccr dives. Those divers are then exposed to a little information that could become a dangerous thing as they actually go out and try it having read these types of post with over 2,000 views. I have actually had a few students turn up for mixed gas training and proceed to tell me they have already been using trimix and diving beyond certification prior to joining the course. They are then quite alarmed when they are shown how many variables could reduce there chances of surviving the dive. It might not be a bad idea for rebreatherworld to set up a section for discussing advanced trimix diving application that can only be accessed by divers possessing the required certifications and requiring a separate registration. I’m sure I will get some healthy replies to my above comments. I just believe in promoting safety in diving and teaching on the internet this was goes against my beliefs. Dive Safe Hopefully a thread like this shows divers that there is alot more to taking additional training than doing a few dives.. A thread like this points out SOME of the deficiencies in knowledge the average diver has, its by all means not encompassing and anyone reading this without the training should realize its just the tip of the iceberg.. But also there are people that have been "trained" and were never given all the tools necessary and a thread like this may save their ass.. I have has enough PMs from both trained and untrained diver to know this thread has been definately worthwhile.. If it makes a diver take a second look and question their bailout strategies, then all the better.. __________________ Joe Radomski CCR Trimix Instructor Trainer ANDI Instructor Trainer Director #10 All posts are personal opinions and DO NOT reflect any affiliated agency unless specifically stated. Last edited by jradomski : 5th September 2007 at 05:37.
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 05:42	#87 (permalink)
tecdivertraining EXPLORER Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Inspiration Vision Evolution Megalodon Ouroboros Dolphin Other Rebreather/s: Not Bought Yet Dolphin Join Date: May 2005 Location: Phuket, Thailand Posts: 550	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by jradomski) Hopefully a thread like this shows divers that there is alot more to taking additional training than doing a few dives.. A thread like this points out SOME of the deficiencies in knowledge the average diver has, its by all means not encompassing and anyone reading this without the training should realize its just the tip of the iceberg.. But also there are people that have been "trained" and were never given all the tools necessary and a thread like this may save their ass.. I have has enough PMs from both trained and untrained diver to know this thread has been definately worthwhile.. If it makes a diver take a second look and question their bailout strategies, then all the better.. Hi Joe I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather. I respect your opinions as a very experienced IT on many CCR and would welcome you ideas and review prior to my article being posted. Pm me if that of interest __________________ Mathew Partridge Technical Director Pro-Tech Dive College www.protechdivers.com www.tech-ccr.com
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 05:54	#88 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,488	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) Genesis! calling Genesis! I think he is busy taking notes... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 05:58	#89 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 235	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather. I respect your opinions as a very experienced IT on many CCR and would welcome you ideas and review prior to my article being posted. Pm me if that of interest Sounds like a brilliant idea - I think that one thing this thread has raised is different schools of thought etc and questions that one might raise with an instructor when doing a mixed gas course. I plan to do mine early next year so ...
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 06:06	#90 (permalink)
UKSteve Steve Collard Current Rebreather/s: Inspiration Vision Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Weymouth, UK Posts: 603	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by tecdivertraining) Hi Joe I am now working on an article 101 things you should discusses with your instructor when taking a Mixed Gas Diving course on a Rebreather. Er.. isn't that otherwise called the Course syllabus that should be provided by the training agency??? Ok.. that was a joke before someone gets their knickers in a twist!! Although I have done Mod 1/2/3 there are still many things I am picking up from RBW.. not all taken as gospel; I have a very finely tuned bullsh*t detector from too many years on drilling rigs but it never hurts to look at things from a different angle - even if you then choose to discount it. A good example of something I had never heard before is the O2 effect on the middle ear from CCR diving. Maybe I was asleep when that was mentioned in my Mod 1 course but once again RBW has filled in some knowledge. For what its worth I totally dissagree with the idea of locking out some areas of discussion or restricting technical content. Legislation will never prevent Darwinian evolution!! Steve
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