Standard Bailout Mixes

Drmike · 4th September 2007, 14:25

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

Exactly, the exception being in a cave when the bottom times can be extended and the deco can get quite long. However, in that instance you can set up the cave with bail out and deco gas and not need to carry it. All you need on your person is enough bailout to safely get to your staged gas.

IMO, all bailout proceedures should be simple, clean and at least initially, thought or decision free. By that I mean you should have it structured so that there is only one path you need to follow to know you are safe.

yup I agree - indeed its real nice to have all that lovely gas staged and then free to carry just what you need for the push

kieranu · 4th September 2007, 15:18

I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits. Although it may mean carrying around a larger cylinder, its one cylinder and can be utilised on pretty much any dive where deco could be an issue

I'm completely of the agreement that bailout is bailout and hopefully won't ever need to be used so unless you're diving in a remote location where you're setting up gas specifically for those dives there's little merit in preparing "optimum bailout" for each dive - sounds like a waste of money to me unless you have the ways and means for decanting gases between various cylinders and can be bothered doing it.

I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money...

Drmike · 4th September 2007, 15:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits. Although it may mean carrying around a larger cylinder, its one cylinder and can be utilised on pretty much any dive where deco could be an issue

I'm completely of the agreement that bailout is bailout and hopefully won't ever need to be used so unless you're diving in a remote location where you're setting up gas specifically for those dives there's little merit in preparing "optimum bailout" for each dive - sounds like a waste of money to me unless you have the ways and means for decanting gases between various cylinders and can be bothered doing it.

I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money...

that was obviously just for illustrative purposes. Each dive req will be different and it wont always be possible or adventageous.

This should be covered in a good ccr trimx course (now where have i heard that before? )

JS1scuba · 4th September 2007, 15:48

Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike)

They have been running them at 1.3 for 20 years

Yes, but i was referring to the .7 page not the 1.3 page ....

Joe · 4th September 2007, 16:56

Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu)

I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money...

Without getting into the decompression aspects of it, (some say He is easier to decompress from while others disagree), the merit of Tmx50/50 vs EAN50 is how the bottle rides or swims. Bottles with more than 30% He ride high under your arm and swim and scooter much better than ones without He.

Quote:

I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits.

Also, thank you for the complement and while I'd like to take credit for being one of the originators of that idea it actually goes back to OC where on extreme dives we needed multiple deco gasses (read 3rd) so we would eliminate the O2 and rely on a support diver to bring it to us, knowing that we could increase the 20' stop by about 1/3 and do it on 50/50 in the event the support diver didn't bring the O2.

Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread.

Drmike · 4th September 2007, 17:19

Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba)

Yes, but i was referring to the .7 page not the 1.3 page ....

what 0.7 page?

http://www.supsalv.org/pdf/Chapter17b.pdf

decoweenie · 4th September 2007, 17:23

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread.

No, it was earlier in the thread...

Joe · 4th September 2007, 18:04

Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie)

No, it was earlier in the thread...

I see, you had it nailed on post #6

Actually, I dive exactly the same gasses you do.

I do my cell linearity checks with a device I built for that purpose and typically do it before every dive trip rather than every dive. Then I do another cell check by flushing the loop with pure O2 before I go into the water and noting the PO2 / FO2 on the surface before I jump in. I use O2 only till I hit around 30 feet and see if the PO2 has about doubled. Granted this isn't super accurate but it should catch any big issues. I figure that the probability of 3 cells going at the same time after having passed a linearity check within the past few days is somewhat slim to none.

decoweenie · 4th September 2007, 18:13

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

Actually, I dive exactly the same gasses you do.

I am glad someone else is doing the same as I am starting to worry for a while...

Quote:

I figure that the probability of 3 cells going at the same time after having passed a linearity check within the past few days is somewhat slim to none.

Or at least 1.6+ at the beginning of the dive (which is only 30-60 mins to the start of the ascend from the bottom).

Once I have started the ascend (most likely on the anchor line, or already shot a DSMB) it is really a cake walk to deal with any failure no matter how big.

kieranu · 5th September 2007, 00:05

Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe)

Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread.

Yeah, I meant him - I was wondering why you opted to use 50/50 but you've just answered the question - too many Joes

4th September 2007, 14:25	#71 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) Exactly, the exception being in a cave when the bottom times can be extended and the deco can get quite long. However, in that instance you can set up the cave with bail out and deco gas and not need to carry it. All you need on your person is enough bailout to safely get to your staged gas. IMO, all bailout proceedures should be simple, clean and at least initially, thought or decision free. By that I mean you should have it structured so that there is only one path you need to follow to know you are safe. yup I agree - indeed its real nice to have all that lovely gas staged and then free to carry just what you need for the push __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
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4th September 2007, 15:18	#72 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 236	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits. Although it may mean carrying around a larger cylinder, its one cylinder and can be utilised on pretty much any dive where deco could be an issue I'm completely of the agreement that bailout is bailout and hopefully won't ever need to be used so unless you're diving in a remote location where you're setting up gas specifically for those dives there's little merit in preparing "optimum bailout" for each dive - sounds like a waste of money to me unless you have the ways and means for decanting gases between various cylinders and can be bothered doing it. I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money...
(Offline)

4th September 2007, 15:23	#73 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits. Although it may mean carrying around a larger cylinder, its one cylinder and can be utilised on pretty much any dive where deco could be an issue I'm completely of the agreement that bailout is bailout and hopefully won't ever need to be used so unless you're diving in a remote location where you're setting up gas specifically for those dives there's little merit in preparing "optimum bailout" for each dive - sounds like a waste of money to me unless you have the ways and means for decanting gases between various cylinders and can be bothered doing it. I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money... that was obviously just for illustrative purposes. Each dive req will be different and it wont always be possible or adventageous. This should be covered in a good ccr trimx course (now where have i heard that before? ) __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

4th September 2007, 15:48	#74 (permalink)
JS1scuba RebreatherWorld Sponsor Current Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss Other Rebreather/s: Classic Kiss MK 15.X Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ - USA Posts: 424	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Drmike) They have been running them at 1.3 for 20 years Yes, but i was referring to the .7 page not the 1.3 page ....
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4th September 2007, 16:56	#75 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 247	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by kieranu) I also seem to be missing the merit of using Tmx50/50 over EAN50. All this seems to do is cost you more money and increase deco times thereby costing you yet more money... Without getting into the decompression aspects of it, (some say He is easier to decompress from while others disagree), the merit of Tmx50/50 vs EAN50 is how the bottle rides or swims. Bottles with more than 30% He ride high under your arm and swim and scooter much better than ones without He. Quote: I think Joe and Mike's idea of using 50% O2 instead of 100% O2 and a leaner Nitrox definitely has merits. Also, thank you for the complement and while I'd like to take credit for being one of the originators of that idea it actually goes back to OC where on extreme dives we needed multiple deco gasses (read 3rd) so we would eliminate the O2 and rely on a support diver to bring it to us, knowing that we could increase the 20' stop by about 1/3 and do it on 50/50 in the event the support diver didn't bring the O2. Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread. Last edited by Joe : 4th September 2007 at 16:59.
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4th September 2007, 17:19	#76 (permalink)
Drmike Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: MK 15.X Ouroboros Other CCR Home Build Other Rebreather/s: Inspiration Classic Other CCR Home Build Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 3,157	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by JS1scuba) Yes, but i was referring to the .7 page not the 1.3 page .... what 0.7 page? http://www.supsalv.org/pdf/Chapter17b.pdf __________________ Cave diving is a sport Wreck diving is a sport Diving in general is a sport 'Rebreather diving' is not a sport its the delusional obsession with a highly dangerous and often inappropriate piece of equipment
(Offline)

4th September 2007, 17:23	#77 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread. No, it was earlier in the thread... __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
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4th September 2007, 18:04	#78 (permalink)
Joe Custom Title Allowed! Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: Florida, USA Posts: 247	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by decoweenie) No, it was earlier in the thread... I see, you had it nailed on post #6 Actually, I dive exactly the same gasses you do. I do my cell linearity checks with a device I built for that purpose and typically do it before every dive trip rather than every dive. Then I do another cell check by flushing the loop with pure O2 before I go into the water and noting the PO2 / FO2 on the surface before I jump in. I use O2 only till I hit around 30 feet and see if the PO2 has about doubled. Granted this isn't super accurate but it should catch any big issues. I figure that the probability of 3 cells going at the same time after having passed a linearity check within the past few days is somewhat slim to none.
(Offline)

4th September 2007, 18:13	#79 (permalink)
decoweenie Crash Test Dummy Current Rebreather/s: Other CCR Other Rebreather/s: Other CCR Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cairo Posts: 5,510	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) Actually, I dive exactly the same gasses you do. I am glad someone else is doing the same as I am starting to worry for a while... Quote: I figure that the probability of 3 cells going at the same time after having passed a linearity check within the past few days is somewhat slim to none. Or at least 1.6+ at the beginning of the dive (which is only 30-60 mins to the start of the ascend from the bottom). Once I have started the ascend (most likely on the anchor line, or already shot a DSMB) it is really a cake walk to deal with any failure no matter how big. __________________ "...after a while you get bored offering advice to a bull that like to keep butting the fence with its head rather than walking through the open gate..." - Rebreather World PM
(Offline)

5th September 2007, 00:05	#80 (permalink)
kieranu Apprentice Meg Pilot Current Rebreather/s: Megalodon Other Rebreather/s: Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: WA, Australia Posts: 236	Re: Standard Bailout Mixes Quote: (Originally Posted by Joe) Also, I think Joe Radomski mentioned that point earlier in the thread. Yeah, I meant him - I was wondering why you opted to use 50/50 but you've just answered the question - too many Joes
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